AAL 2Q14 Earnings -$1.5B before specials...

[Bob Owens]

You're smarter than that, at least in theory. We received a raise 4.3% raise from a company that wasn't really ours yet. We were able to bet a raise that is compounded yearly, that compounds in our OT, that compounds on our 401K over a potential of a profit sharing plan that would have to rport about $4B in profits every single year in order to receive an equivalent value of the raise. The adjustment in wages carries as an average which would lower our potential raise since we would have started lower than where we are.... but that's a different topic.
 

Wrong, they would only have to report $8 billion over the life of the agreement, the compounding only effects the first two years because the net total of the mid term wage adjustment isn't affected by the 4% and will no doubt be well in excess of the 4%. 
 
 
 

Then we have this.... knowing that we have many people on here that believe the TWU is weak then it would stand to reason that those same people would be feeling better knowing we received a known value with the raise as opposed to a moving target where the value is predicated on a potential payout that our counterparts gave up during the 2008 negotiations in order to add to their pension formula. So, in Joint talks it seems abundantly clear that a profit sharing plan had a limited and expiring shelf life.
 

 
Clear to whom? Donnelly? The guy who overstated out cost out by $250 million? Who costed out sick time as all days used and covered with Overtime, an assumption they did not use when they took the sick time away? A guy who came up with a plan that gave the company two bites of the apple by deducting the cut in pay from the value of other concessions requiring us to give up far more in concessions in 2003? The guy who left the TWU shortly after Little and Videtich left and went directly into SWA management? 
 
Pre-merger AA lawyers let it out in court that their stand alone plan would leave them earning $2.8 billion a year. IIRC US was projecting synergies of $2 billion with the merger, so even if the US operations broke even that leaves a potential of $4.8 billion per year in profits. Makes giving up profit sharing over the life of the agreement for a two year 4.3% advance of the mid term wage adjustment look even worse. 
 
The whole selling point of the merger was that it would leave us with a better deal than the stand alone AA was offering, well as of now it doesn't appear that we will have gained anything other than a two year advance of a portion of the mid term wage adjustment in exchange for possibly 6 to 10 (or more) years of profit sharing. 

 

[swamt]

Very nice, but it is the TWU riding them into the ground.


You guys can vote in AMFA and ride our coattails if you want.
We don't mind.

Yes they can.  Vote in AMFA and jump on the wagon.  Welcome aboard...

 

[swamt]

That's because of your stupid-ass worthless union, the TWU.   Decades of failure.   
 
An effective union would negotiate raises without reducing the profit sharing, but the  TWU Bubbas are incapable of doing that.  

Bubbas!!    I like that one...

 

[Bob Owens]

So...at one time profit sharing was a company wide non negotiated benefit expressing gratitude for a job well done and rewarding the front line employees. Now, it has to be negotiated and you are no longer entitled to the "job well done" money if you negotiated and received a well deserved raise. No NYer, not crying, just wanting the TWU to do what's right and keep PF and negotiated raises separate. Me thinks other industries work this way, maybe even some airlines...it just the right thing to do...
 
By the way NYer, my company prefund match?? Do they have till the end of time to decide???

Check your Bulletin Boards, you ain't going to like the company's response. Basically sounds like they are saying that if they don't get to terminate the benefits for retirees they are keeping our money.  Guess the $1.5 billion in profits we helped them earn wasn't enough, they want your prefunding monies as well. 

 

[MetalMover]

Check your Bulletin Boards, you ain't going to like the company's response. Basically sounds like they are saying that if they don't get to terminate the benefits for retirees they are keeping our money.  Guess the $1.5 billion in profits we helped them earn wasn't enough, they want your prefunding monies as well. 

I can't wait to hear Overspeed's response to this latest development.

 

[john john]

Instead of riding our coat tails why don't you negotiate your own contracts?

USAirways Passenger Service Agents still have profit sharing in their contact and hope to kept it as long as the AA agents vote YES

 

[Chuck Schalk]

1.5 billion profit.......good thing we voted yes! 1995 all over again

 

[AANOTOK]

Check your Bulletin Boards, you ain't going to like the company's response. Basically sounds like they are saying that if they don't get to terminate the benefits for retirees they are keeping our money.  Guess the $1.5 billion in profits we helped them earn wasn't enough, they want your prefunding monies as well. 

Yep, read it Bob...now we know what "upon a successful resolution" means, the complete termination of retiree benefits. Good to see there were no strings attached to me getting my match back, it's contractual the mouths kept saying...hell, there's a rope attached and the TWU never had hold of their end...wow!

 

[Realityck]

You're smarter than that, at least in theory. We received a raise 4.3% raise from a company that wasn't really ours yet. We were able to bet a raise that is compounded yearly, that compounds in our OT, that compounds on our 401K over a potential of a profit sharing plan that would have to rport about $4B in profits every single year in order to receive an equivalent value of the raise. The adjustment in wages carries as an average which would lower our potential raise since we would have started lower than where we are.... but that's a different topic.

Then we have this.... knowing that we have many people on here that believe the TWU is weak then it would stand to reason that those same people would be feeling better knowing we received a known value with the raise as opposed to a moving target where the value is predicated on a potential payout that our counterparts gave up during the 2008 negotiations in order to add to their pension formula. So, in Joint talks it seems abundantly clear that a profit sharing plan had a limited and expiring shelf life.

We didn't get a raise for 10 years, but we had a profit sharing plan. That didn't work out.... nowhere are some crying we didn't do that again?

 
 
 




To begin with all three AA unions gave up profit sharing, not just the TWU. Second, the profit reported is the combined profits of both companies, not just the former AA.  Any profit sharing pool would, therefore, have to be shared with the former USAirways employees and that would water down its value by at least one third. Finally, the appreciation in value of my stock created by the Company’s profitability has been far greater than any profit sharing check I would have received even if the combined Company makes four billion this year.

 

[NYer]

Wrong, they would only have to report $8 billion over the life of the agreement, the compounding only effects the first two years because the net total of the mid term wage adjustment isn't affected by the 4% and will no doubt be well in excess of the 4%. 
 
 
 

 
Clear to whom? Donnelly? The guy who overstated out cost out by $250 million? Who costed out sick time as all days used and covered with Overtime, an assumption they did not use when they took the sick time away? A guy who came up with a plan that gave the company two bites of the apple by deducting the cut in pay from the value of other concessions requiring us to give up far more in concessions in 2003? The guy who left the TWU shortly after Little and Videtich left and went directly into SWA management? 
 
Pre-merger AA lawyers let it out in court that their stand alone plan would leave them earning $2.8 billion a year. IIRC US was projecting synergies of $2 billion with the merger, so even if the US operations broke even that leaves a potential of $4.8 billion per year in profits. Makes giving up profit sharing over the life of the agreement for a two year 4.3% advance of the mid term wage adjustment look even worse. 
 
The whole selling point of the merger was that it would leave us with a better deal than the stand alone AA was offering, well as of now it doesn't appear that we will have gained anything other than a two year advance of a portion of the mid term wage adjustment in exchange for possibly 6 to 10 (or more) years of profit sharing.

clear to anyone that spoke to AA Management and the IAM counterparts that negotiated pension contribution instead of possible returns from a profit sharing plan.

apparently you sat out the class on averaging, but it you low numbers it brings down the average. Without the 4.3% raises the wages at AA and US would actually being down the total we may receive because they would bring down the average......30+30+35+35=130 divided by 4 and the adjusted wage would be 32.50........However, add 4.3% it then becomes 31.30+31.30+35+35=33.15

33.15 will always be more than 32.50..........in this exercise that's a difference of .65 and I order to get that equivalent value the airline needs to have profits of about $3B, every year, in order to gain that same value which is added to out pay week in and week out.

 

[NYer]

So...at one time profit sharing was a company wide non negotiated benefit expressing gratitude for a job well done and rewarding the front line employees. Now, it has to be negotiated and you are no longer entitled to the "job well done" money if you negotiated and received a well deserved raise. No NYer, not crying, just wanting the TWU to do what's right and keep PF and negotiated raises separate. Me thinks other industries work this way, maybe even some airlines...it just the right thing to do...
 
By the way NYer, my company prefund match?? Do they have till the end of time to decide???

that's up to Judge Lane as he is still presiding over the Retiree Benefits hearing within the AMR BK case. (Or the airline could decide to just quit trying to seek modifications to the Retiree Benefits)

 

[NYer]

To begin with all three AA unions gave up profit sharing, not just the TWU. Second, the profit reported is the combined profits of both companies, not just the former AA.  Any profit sharing pool would, therefore, have to be shared with the former USAirways employees and that would water down its value by at least one third. Finally, the appreciation in value of my stock created by the Company’s profitability has been far greater than any profit sharing check I would have received even if the combined Company makes four billion this year.

Yup

 

[AANOTOK]

that's up to Judge Lane as he is still presiding over the Retiree Benefits hearing within the AMR BK case. (Or the airline could decide to just quit trying to seek modifications to the Retiree Benefits)

I guess you and Reality do not want to touch the latest letter from AA stating we are not entitled to the
match if the retiree benefits are not terminated.

 

[Realityck]

I guess you and Reality do not want to touch the latest letter from AA stating we are not entitled to the
match if the retiree benefits are not terminated.

 
 
I will be glad to respond to the letter:
 

1. The bankruptcy Judge did not rule on the termination of the Retiree Medical Plan 
2. The 1114 Hearings have not been concluded
3. The new AA (ex-USAir) management hasn’t decided yet if they will sue to terminate  the Retiree Medical Plan

 
 
I believe the “active employee” participants are entitled to the Company match since the negotiated termination
of the plan was a de facto termination which entitles them to it, although It may have to be addressed in either Arbitration or the Court.
 
Just because the Company says something doesn’t make it true or a correct interpretation of the contract.
Incidentally, they said the same thing to the flight attendants, who have the same language, and they also intend to fight.

 

[swamt]

Great work TWU, great work, good God...