AAL 2Q14 Earnings -$1.5B before specials...

[CMH_GSE]

You doggone twu clowns. They should never have given away profit sharing. We deserve BOTH the raise and profit sharing! Bunch of commie lovin clowns. Go AMFA!!!

That's a different conversation.
If given the choice between one or the other, I would most likely always choose the percentage raise as it is always there and is added to yr after yr. while the PS is a one time payment.

Would I rather have both? Of course, but that wasn't what was presented to us.

 

[WeAAsles]

Well it's morning and it looks like once again the roaches are coming out from under the floorboards to infest another topic. :wacko:

 

[AANOTOK]

Well it's morning and it looks like once again the roaches are coming out from under the floorboards to infest another topic. :wacko:

Are you surprised?? Didn't think so...

 

[WeAAsles]

Are you surprised?? Didn't think so...

Not in the slightest.

 

[700UW]

From DMN's aviation blog... Still haven't seen the official release
 

Should read $10.3 Billion in cash, not $10.3 million

 

[Bob Owens]

The PS was exchanged for the 4.8% raise. When the math was done with the way the payout formula was written, the company would have had to have a 4 Billion profit for the year to equal the raise for TWU members. And that wasn't including gains to the 401k, OT or extra hours worked from the raise. 

 

Well that's how its being spun. When they started working on the deal we were told that we were to make gains by supporting the merger, so the 4% which still leaves us $10hr below SWA and well below the rest of the industry should have been for our support in making the merger happen, by trading away the PS for the raise (which none of us got to vote on) in effect we didn't gain anything, because the PS would have been for six years or more while the 4% is really only there for two years, the mid term wage adjustment would have gotten us that anyway. So we gave up perpetual profit sharing for a two year advance of 4% of a raise we would have received anyway. 
 
So using your numbers once the cumulative profit over however long this contract lasts exceeds $8 billion we start losing money on the merger, looks like they may hit that figure in less than three years, so that means for the remaining years we lose money, the more they make the more we lose.
 
Still waiting to hear anyone give a valid explanation of why $1 worth of our concessions only got us less than a third of what $1 worth of concessions got the pilots.  
 
 
 
 
IIRC some said I was nuts when I said the company was claiming they would be earning $2.8 billion a year with their stand alone plan. We wuz robbed!!!! Thank Little, Videtich, Levine, Mark Richard etc. 

 

[traderjake]

Part of the blame goes to the pilots, who gave away 2/3 (10%) of the profit sharing in 2012 in exchange for reduced concessions, which was then forced on everyone else thanks to the "me-too" clauses.  

 
Instead of riding our coat tails why don't you negotiate your own contracts?

 

[1AA]

That's a different conversation.
If given the choice between one or the other, I would most likely always choose the percentage raise as it is always there and is added to yr after yr. while the PS is a one time payment.

Would I rather have both? Of course, but that wasn't what was presented to us.

Neither was presented to us to choose. We were told this is what you will get or not get.
TWU democracy at its best. Raises should be automatic, Profit Sharing should not be held hostage for a pay raise. Profits will be there for years to come. Pay raises have to be begged for.

 

[WeAAsles]

Well that's how its being spun. When they started working on the deal we were told that we were to make gains by supporting the merger, so the 4.8% which still leaves us $10hr below SWA and well below the rest of the industry should have been for our support in making the merger happen, by trading away the PS for the raise (which none of us got to vote on) in effect we didn't gain anything, because the PS would have been for six years or more while the 4.8% is really only there for two years, the mid term wage adjustment would have gotten us that anyway. So we gave up perpetual profit sharing for a two year advance of 4.8% of a raise we would have received anyway. 

Bob it's not a wage adjustment. It's an averaging. We would have gone into that averaging (IAM US also) at 4.8% less and that would have brought down the increase.  C'mon man you know that. You also know it was offered by another airline as a take it or leave it option. Parker did not allow any time to make a vote on it and if we had said no the raise would have been lost. Is AA going to make 4 Bil to equal our raises this year? What about all the compounding gains?
 
So using your numbers once the cumulative profit over however long this contract lasts exceeds $8 billion we start losing money on the merger, looks like they may hit that figure in less than three years, so that means for the remaining years we lose money, the more they make the more we lose.
 
Still waiting to hear anyone give a valid explanation of why $1 worth of our concessions only got us less than a third of what $1 worth of concessions got the pilots.  
 
 
 
 
IIRC some said I was nuts when I said the company was claiming they would be earning $2.8 billion a year with their stand alone plan. We wuz robbed!!!! Thank Little, Videtich, Levine, Mark Richard etc. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Bob it's not a wage adjustment. It's an averaging. We would have gone into that averaging (IAM US also) at 4.8% less and that would have brought down the increase.  C'mon man you know that. You also know it was offered by another airline as a take it or leave it option. Parker did not allow any time to make a vote on it and if we had said no the raise would have been lost. Is AA going to make 4 Bil to equal our raises this year? What about all the compounding gains?
 
 

The raise was 4%, the equity is 4.8%. 
 
Your math is way off, even if we went in 4% lower into the average that would not lower the average by 4%, it would lower it closer to 1/4th of 4% or 1%. But since our numbers are not included in the averaging the 4% would have no effect whatsoever on what the mid term wage adjustment would come out to.
 
The wage adjustment does not include the AA pay rates, it includes (UA + DL + US)/3
 
AA may or may not make $4 billion this year but they will likely make much more than $8 billion over the six year term of this contract and however many years negotiations go on after that. Using your numbers, which are now suspect in lite of what you just posted we start to lose money once they exceed $8 billion.
 
In the end we took a concession to make this merger happen, we gained nothing. 

 

[WNMECH]

Instead of riding our coat tails why don't you negotiate your own contracts?

Very nice, but it is the TWU riding them into the ground.


You guys can vote in AMFA and ride our coattails if you want.
We don't mind.

 

[AANOTOK]

 
Instead of riding our coat tails why don't you negotiate your own contracts?

Damn, does the sound familiar....That's right, I've heard it for thirty one years now!

 

[NYer]

Well that's how its being spun. When they started working on the deal we were told that we were to make gains by supporting the merger, so the 4% which still leaves us $10hr below SWA and well below the rest of the industry should have been for our support in making the merger happen, by trading away the PS for the raise (which none of us got to vote on) in effect we didn't gain anything, because the PS would have been for six years or more while the 4% is really only there for two years, the mid term wage adjust tment would have gotten us that anyway. So we gave up perpetual profit sharing for a two year advance of 4% of a raise we would have received anyway. 
 
So using your numbers once the cumulative profit over however long this contract lasts exceeds $8 billion we start losing money on the merger, looks like they may hit that figure in less than three years, so that means for the remaining years we lose money, the more they make the more we lose.
 
Still waiting to hear anyone give a valid explanation of why $1 worth of our concessions only got us less than a third of what $1 worth of concessions got the pilots.  
 
 
 
 
IIRC some said I was nuts when I said the company was claiming they would be earning $2.8 billion a year with their stand alone plan. We wuz robbed!!!! Thank Little, Videtich, Levine, Mark Richard etc.

You're smarter than that, at least in theory. We received a raise 4.3% raise from a company that wasn't really ours yet. We were able to bet a raise that is compounded yearly, that compounds in our OT, that compounds on our 401K over a potential of a profit sharing plan that would have to rport about $4B in profits every single year in order to receive an equivalent value of the raise. The adjustment in wages carries as an average which would lower our potential raise since we would have started lower than where we are.... but that's a different topic.

Then we have this.... knowing that we have many people on here that believe the TWU is weak then it would stand to reason that those same people would be feeling better knowing we received a known value with the raise as opposed to a moving target where the value is predicated on a potential payout that our counterparts gave up during the 2008 negotiations in order to add to their pension formula. So, in Joint talks it seems abundantly clear that a profit sharing plan had a limited and expiring shelf life.

We didn't get a raise for 10 years, but we had a profit sharing plan. That didn't work out.... nowhere are some crying we didn't do that again?

 

[FWAAA]

Would I rather have both? Of course, but that wasn't what was presented to us.

That's because of your stupid-ass worthless union, the TWU.   Decades of failure.   
 
An effective union would negotiate raises without reducing the profit sharing, but the  TWU Bubbas are incapable of doing that.  

 

[AANOTOK]

So...at one time profit sharing was a company wide non negotiated benefit expressing gratitude for a job well done and rewarding the front line employees. Now, it has to be negotiated and you are no longer entitled to the "job well done" money if you negotiated and received a well deserved raise. No NYer, not crying, just wanting the TWU to do what's right and keep PF and negotiated raises separate. Me thinks other industries work this way, maybe even some airlines...it just the right thing to do...
 
By the way NYer, my company prefund match?? Do they have till the end of time to decide???