AA, UA and DL in China

[commavia]

So much arrogance, so little basis for arrogance.  Simply incredible.

 

[WorldTraveler]

so much defensiveness, so little ability to accept valid criticism.

there's a reason why the nAAtive mgmt. team and its mindset got swept out like yesterday's dust bunnies.

welcome to the world of modern business.

Parker is in charge.

 

[AC AA LA FA]

I have no love lost for many if the (semi) old guard at AMR and feel that if the are now on the street their performance, attitude, and or leadership skills just did not jive with the new way we are attempting to do business. There are a handful around that have the potential to get on board and some I am shocked to see are still on the payroll. In my estimation we are about 75% there. The rest have been given enough rope to hang themselves..Hector is no dummy and represents the first and only VP/MD of my department I can say I respect and admire. I have been at AA almost 25 yrs. 
 
This has nothing to do with China--?? Other than when the company made a decision 3/4 of its employees shutter in pessimism and mistrust that it was a good solid one that most likely will be changed or cancelled in 4 months costing us millions. If Doug says China now-than I, for the first time since Crandall, can feel confident about the decision. Now its a little about China.

 

[commavia]

Attempts to broad-brush conflate non-Delta cheerleaders with "nAAtive management" apologists are nakedly transparent, and just show the baselessness of all these alleged "facts."  Nonetheless, the Delta fanclub purity tests sort of miss the point, which is that those capable of independent thought need not lock themselves into one camp or another, and are capable of acknowledging the successes and failures of all sides - labor and management, now and then, at AA and yes, shutter the thought, Delta, too.
 
Thus, back to the topic, it's true that former AA management presided over lots of red ink, but it's also true that the new AA management thus far appears willing to continue basically the same tolerance of losses in China and Asia as part of a broader, longer-term "investment."  And herein lies the real issue: through "investments" in loss-making routes and the JAL JV, AA has now nearly closed the competitive gap with Delta with respect to nonstop U.S.-Asia, and thus the fear is sinking in that the whole "Delta is so super special and amazing and untouchable" line may not be usable much longer (if it ever was, that is).
 
Incidentally, while we're all getting so hot and bothered about the alleged horrors of AA being willing to subsidize losses in competitively important longhaul markets in service to longer-term strategic goals, it seems instructive to take a little trip down memory lane to a time, back in February 2010, when Delta was supposedly going to "operate more than enough flights to depress yields over the Pacific and in Japan as long as it takes to finish Japan Airlines off once and for all."  Amazing how four years ago it made infinite sense for Delta to apparently take losses across the Pacific to "finish off" a competitor in defense of a Delta's fighting an inevitably-losing battle preserving a hub clearly in long-term decline, but when AA today links its huge U.S. hubs/gateways with the growing markets of East Asia and is willing to take time and money developing said flights, it's horrible for employees and shareholders.  How telling.
 
Oh, and by the way - thanks for that late-breaking update that Parker is "in charge" - I knew there was a reason I kept reading this forum! 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

 
+1
 
I think a lot of users feel the same way...
 
I also think a lot of people have just said "enough," and left.
 
The board is worse for it...

 
+ 100000000
 

 
I know full well that some of the investment analysts read this forum and read a.net when I posted there because some of the same themes and arguments that have been made here end up within days in published blogs and columns.

 
"Praise can be your  most valuable asset as long as you don't aim it at yourself."
Orlando A. Battista (1917-1995)
chemist, author
 

Incidentally, while we're all getting so hot and bothered about the alleged horrors of AA being willing to subsidize losses in competitively important longhaul markets in service to longer-term strategic goals, it seems instructive to take a little trip down memory lane to a time, back in February 2010, when Delta was supposedly going to "operate more than enough flights to depress yields over the Pacific and in Japan as long as it takes to finish Japan Airlines off once and for all."  Amazing how four years ago it made infinite sense for Delta to apparently take losses across the Pacific to "finish off" a competitor in defense of a Delta's fighting an inevitably-losing battle preserving a hub clearly in long-term decline, but when AA today links its huge U.S. hubs/gateways with the growing markets of East Asia and is willing to take time and money developing said flights, it's horrible for employees and shareholders.  How telling.
 

 
I don't think WT (or spectator for that matter) will ever 'grasp' that everybody can see through the DL bias / partisanship after reading only a few posts.  Also, I think everybody can acknowledge that overall DL is a good carrier, but it may not be the best (#1) in all that it does / in every measurable parameter.  When this flaw is pointed out, WT becomes unhinged and goes on to write endless diatribes full of not only haughtiness but more qualifiers / disclaimers / preconditions / made up definitions etc., all in an attempt to prove how great DL is.  Moreover, WT's inherent arrogance is the root cause of his inability to admit any mistake(s), resulting in more-or-less 0 credibility.
IMHO

 

[eolesen]

I also think a lot of people have just said "enough," and left.
 
The board is worse for it...

All you have to do is look at the dearth of activity on the DL forum.

Forum cancer is preventable, but only if you act. The guys at Airliners.net were smart enough to perform a WTectomy, and their traffic hasn't suffered in the least bit...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thus, back to the topic, it's true that former AA management presided over lots of red ink, but it's also true that the new AA management thus far appears willing to continue basically the same tolerance of losses in China and Asia as part of a broader, longer-term "investment."  And herein lies the real issue: through "investments" in loss-making routes and the JAL JV, AA has now nearly closed the competitive gap with Delta with respect to nonstop U.S.-Asia, and thus the fear is sinking in that the whole "Delta is so super special and amazing and untouchable" line may not be usable much longer (if it ever was, that is).
 
Incidentally, while we're all getting so hot and bothered about the alleged horrors of AA being willing to subsidize losses in competitively important longhaul markets in service to longer-term strategic goals, it seems instructive to take a little trip down memory lane to a time, back in February 2010, when Delta was supposedly going to "operate more than enough flights to depress yields over the Pacific and in Japan as long as it takes to finish Japan Airlines off once and for all."  Amazing how four years ago it made infinite sense for Delta to apparently take losses across the Pacific to "finish off" a competitor in defense of a Delta's fighting an inevitably-losing battle preserving a hub clearly in long-term decline, but when AA today links its huge U.S. hubs/gateways with the growing markets of East Asia and is willing to take time and money developing said flights, it's horrible for employees and shareholders.  How telling.

except that you won't EVER admit that DL managed to remain profitable flying to Asia even despite a massive drop in yields that came with the drop in value of the yen.

It is completely inaccurate to argue that AA even with its JV partner has come close to closing the gap flying to Asia - unless your point is to lose as much money as you can while flooding the market with seats that don't pay for themselves.

the very reason why Parker is cleaning house is because of the completely failed mindset that you have and which has existed at AA headquarters for years.

AA is a FOR PROFIT company which means they have to generate a profit or demonstrate the value in not doing so.

DL is the ONLY US carrier that has operated a profitable transpacific system on a consistent basis.

Further, it is completely INACCURATE to say that the AA/JL JV is larger than DL.

It is not.

AA and JL do not operate their entire transpac systems on a JV basis.

DL is larger than AA and JL to Japan as well as in the markets that are covered by the JV.

If JL is stupid enough to be a part of a JV where they split hundreds of millions of dollars in losses per year, even in Japan where AA alone significantly underperforms DL as well as UA and NH, then I can assure you it won't be long before they are out of business.

JL has dramatically reduced its presence between the US and Asia and the only hope they have of holding onto any presence between the US and Asia is by trying to seek JVs where they can to Asia... but the biggest markets and the ones where AA is throwing the most capacity are in China where AA and JL cannot have a JV.

The losses in China are AA's and AA's alone.

it should speak volumes about AA's TPAC performance that QF, a member of oneworld, won't participate in a JV with AA to HKG and instead AA operates DFW-HKG under a JV with a Japanese carrier which is 3 out of 3 with its US partner in the US-Japan market.  
 

I don't think WT (or spectator for that matter) will ever 'grasp' that everybody can see through the DL bias / partisanship after reading only a few posts.  Also, I think everybody can acknowledge that overall DL is a good carrier, but it may not be the best (#1) in all that it does / in every measurable parameter.  When this flaw is pointed out, WT becomes unhinged and goes on to write endless diatribes full of not only haughtiness but more qualifiers / disclaimers / preconditions / made up definitions etc., all in an attempt to prove how great DL is.  Moreover, WT's inherent arrogance is the root cause of his inability to admit any mistake(s), resulting in more-or-less 0 credibility.
IMHO

no one said that DL does everything right... but the post by Commavia higlights exactly why I keep hammering away at AA and it is SOLELY because he and the nAAtive cheerleading squad can't admit that AA's Pacific performance and strategy absolutely sucks.

If you would like to highlight what DL has continually screwed up, jump in.

but you can't make a list because DL doesn't run its business by allowing something to not work for years on end as AA has done.

A great business leader once said, "the bleeding stops. ALWAYS. Figure out how to stop it before it stops you."

nAAtive mgmt. couldn't stop the bleeding but I can absolutely assure you that Parker will. and it won't involve massive amounts of new growth and continued subsidies of a failing strategy.

it won't be pretty when he decides he can't maintain 3 gateways to Asia, all of which lose massive amounts of money and don't come close to being competitive with other carriers.  

 

All you have to do is look at the dearth of activity on the DL forum.

Forum cancer is preventable, but only if you act. The guys at Airliners.net were smart enough to perform a WTectomy, and their traffic hasn't suffered in the least bit...

are you blind, deaf, AND dumb?

there is no shortage of activity on the DL forum and most of it is AA/US employees trying to convince DL employees to join them in the swamp of labor discord that infects those two airlines and their unions.

you've tried for 10 years to try to shut me up because you can't handle hearing the truth.

There are people on this forum and in the world who don't buy into worship of Bob Crandall and his followers as you do and have.

There will be opposing points of view.


that is the way the democratic process works.

Like the unions, you only want democracy if you control the mouse and the megaphone.

 

[737823]

WT pretty sure JL has only grown-they've added flights to BOS and SAN and a second departure to JFK recently to the US. Within Asia they may have downsized as part of their restructuring 2010-2012 but in the US they have grown.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

but they have reduced capacity dramatically and reduced the number of frequencies.

JL is a much smaller airline than they were before their restructuring including across the Pacific.

but you want to know who has cut more capacity than even JL between the US and Japan?

American Airlines.

 

[robbedagain]

josh  if jl ur referring to is Japan Airlines  I do not believe they serve SAN  do they?  I know they started BOS not sure when but it is done w 787 
 
AA does do seasonal service bos to Europe on its own metal but give it lit time and I think parker will make it full yr round
 
 
wt  while youre hammering away at AA not being profitable on ASIA runs  lets not forget DL still is not profitable in NY     so stop with that bs   the whole dam board knows that

 

[737823]

Robbed JL serves SAN daily 787 has been there for the past year and a half or so.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

josh  if jl ur referring to is Japan Airlines  I do not believe they serve SAN  do they?

They do. IIRC, JL uses a 787 to fly SAN-NRT...

 

[Kev3188]

Jinx.

 

[commavia]

Thank you so much again for reminding all of us, over and over incessantly, that AA is a "FOR PROFIT COMPANY."  I continue to be lost without all of the world-class insights resident in this classroom on this forum.
 
Gosh - if only AA management knew that they were running a "FOR PROFIT COMPANY," maybe then they would just exit Asia, and LAX, and NYC, and "N. Texas," and MIA-Latin America, altogether and leave all that stuff to Delta.  Unfortunately, seems as though Doug Parker (who's "in charge," FYI) hasn't gotten the "best in commercial aviation" memo.
 
Meanwhile I'll just dream of the day - far off in the distant future, no doubt - when AA is reporting the largest profits in company history and is projected by some analysts to produce the largest single annual profit in the history of the U.S. airline industry - even more than Delta!  Oh, wait ...

 

[WorldTraveler]

wt  while youre hammering away at AA not being profitable on ASIA runs  lets not forget DL still is not profitable in NY     so stop with that bs   the whole dam board knows that

you know the big difference between the two?

DL mgmt. TOLD the world that they weren't profitable in NYC BUT EXPECTED TO BE in 2014 because DL has identified the problems and is addressing it.

nAAtive mgmt. NEVER SAID they were losing money to Asia; I am the one that has had for ten years to point out what is working and not working for AA.

And let's be clear, commavia, I HAVE acknowledged what AA does well and I have NEVER said that AA doesn't do well at DFW or from the MIA hub as a whole. Even at the lowest point of AA's financial performance before BK, there was never any evidence that AA was losing money at DFW or MIA - and I never said they were.

It was Parker who came in and within months of being at the helm identified that AA is losing money flying to Asia.

He has never said how he is going to fix it - but his track record at US shows that he doesn't tolerate losses for long. He figures out what works and what doesn't and fixes what doesn't.


All I have ever heard from the nAAtive cheerleader squad now that there is no doubt that AA is losing money to Asia is that it is just an investment which new AA will stick out.

That is NOT the way competent companies are run and it won't be the way AA handles Asia.

continuing to throw stones at others or denying that there are real problems that have to be fixed is what dysfunctional companies do.

AA's problem in Asia is related to its inability to generate revenue.

JL didn't fix that problem and cannot.

AA will fix its problems even if the cheerleader squad on here will likely be left with their mouths gaping open when the news comes down - and it will - that the way AA has run the Pacific cannot continue.