AA to lease out AFW?

[Bob Owens]

The economics of adding airline owned maintenance capacity will be very tough to overcome the lower costs that can be obtained from foreign MROs.

Look back at the number of airline owned/operated maintenance facilities that have been closed over the past decade and the trend is clearly that each airline will operate one or perhaps two very large maintenance base with a couple medium/small supporting bases and then a few more hangars for non-scheduled work or work that can be quickly done in between normal airline schedules - esp. on international aircraft.

The unknown is whether AA will try to keep AFW for its "own use" but staffed at MRO costs or whether it will be completely disconnected from AA's operations.

The pulldown of AFW is certainly affected the N. Texas economy, esp. the Ft. Worth side which was smaller and of which AA employees made up a larger percentage.

"The issue is capacity", what makes you think that foreign operations have the capacity to do AA's work? Most of the growth in Aviation is outside the US, they have their own stuff to maintain. There was a recent article about how Pilots are coming in short supply, that its becoming critical, well the same goes for mechanics. One of the people interviewed said that a lot of the students they had were foreigners who will get certified and go home, the same is true for the few mechanics in a lot of these schools. Someone from JetBlue commented on the exodus of skills and that we may find we don't have the people to fly and maintain our aircraft. Unfortunately , thanks to our ATD and the boys who voted YES we really wont be able to exploit it. The industry created this shortage by screwing the people they had, they made it a crappy place to work, at one time there was balance, sure you had to work shifts, Holidays, weekends in all sorts of weather but the pay was OK and the benefits were good. Now the pay and benefits suck, and the pay and benefits at AA suck more than any other carrier. The only reason I stay is because I have enough seniority to get day shift and weekends off, if not I'd probably get out altogether as some of my younger less senior peers either are doing or are looking to do. Like I said here in NY there are other industries that want the skills mechanics have, and they treat their workers a lot better than AA. One guy recently told me he is leaving, going to the MTA, he can walk to work, gets more vacation despite having close to twenty years with AA, five times the amount of Holiday pay, very cheap medical without the huge deductibles and Copays (at AA no matter which plan you choose if you use $10,000 worth of Medical you will pay at least $7500 of that $10,000, and up to $9000. So for the average worker the medical concession alone is like a $4/hr cut in pay, in other words even if you took a permanent $4/hr cut in pay to go to the MTA you would still be ahead of the game.

So AA is on its way to becoming a polarized workplace. Old bitter workers who simply dont care anymore and young people who dont know any thing and by the time they learn will be gone. AA is doomed to be like Pan Am, who just could not understand why despite having the lowest labor rates and worst benefits in the industry could not compete with carriers that paid better. Their cheerleader lackeys in the AATD will cite the fact that in three years we will have the Wage Adjustment provision kick in, but that wont help, the young guys will still leave for the Holidays, Vacation, Sick Time, better work rules such as double time or $1.75x for Field trips (which will become more common as the shortage becomes more acute) vs AA 1.5X max and the old guys will just show up and do as little as they can. AA will have trouble getting guys to go on field trips and the planes that do break will stay out of service longer. Their lackeys in the AATD , who come here and post under aliases because they are spineless company sucks, are already making moves to insure that 514 remains the largest voting block, having worked hand in hand with management to propose gerrymandering the membership to insure that Tulsa continues to determine the fate of M&R even if Tulsa shrinks. Whats really appalling is that management was apparently aware of the restructuring before the Local Presidents were made aware of the AATDs intentions. Thats why the company extended the UBP till December when their original implementation calendar had it end in October. Luckily there are Union men and women on the IEC and they slowed down the AATDs plans.

 

[WorldTraveler]

regarding your first paragraph, part of AA's plan is to quickly get rid of large portions of its older fleet which will have a dramatic reduction in maintenance needs.

You are absolutely right that AA's workforce will be composed of those that are close enough to retirement that it isn't worth staying and those who are so young that any job right now is a good job to learn the job and get a paycheck.

Your observation about low pay rates is generally true in most industries... it will remain to be seen how it will affect AA maintenance, esp. if large parts of current maintenance requirements are not needed due to large-scale removal of older aircraft.

In five years, it is very possible that global maintenance services could grow... and remember that foreign carriers continue to buy new aircraft much more aggressively than US carriers.. and there is a shakeout coming in global aviation. We are already seeing European carriers fail on a pretty regular basis and the same thing will be true elsewhere in the world. Even where carriers do not fail, there will be multinational mergers which will reduce competition and the number of aircraft that are needed to serve the market, and thus fewer aircraft.

There are alot of factors in play that will affect how much maintenance is needed throughout the world in the next few years.

 

[Bob Owens]

regarding your first paragraph, part of AA's plan is to quickly get rid of large portions of its older fleet which will have a dramatic reduction in maintenance needs.

You are absolutely right that AA's workforce will be composed of those that are close enough to retirement that it isn't worth staying and those who are so young that any job right now is a good job to learn the job and get a paycheck.

Your observation about low pay rates is generally true in most industries... it will remain to be seen how it will affect AA maintenance, esp. if large parts of current maintenance requirements are not needed due to large-scale removal of older aircraft.



There are alot of factors in play that will affect how much maintenance is needed throughout the world in the next few years.

In OH yes, not as much on the line. If anything new aircraft means a learning curve, with workers that really don't care to learn-remember 75% of the line voted NO. What this means is that you wont see what you typically see, mechanics sharing what they learned or caring enough to ask someone if they came across the problem before. Even new airplanes break, and that means they need the line guys to fix them.

Sure old aircraft will leave the fleet, lessening the need for mechanics, but will they leave faster than the old ( and young) mechanics? The average age of mechanics at AA is well over 50, merging with USAIR wont help, it would bring the age higher.

 

[WorldTraveler]

true words, Bob.
But there will have to be a pretty quick ramp up on the line or AA will pay a high price... the relatively short operational problems of Sept. showed how quickly it is to dent finances.
But it is also very likely that AA will ramp up fairly quickly and alot of OH jobs will be lost - not just here in the US but w/o replacement overseas for at least a period of a couple years, and maybe alot longer.

What kind of preparations are you seeing at AA maintenance for the Airbus fleet?

 

[Bob Owens]

true words, Bob.
But there will have to be a pretty quick ramp up on the line or AA will pay a high price... the relatively short operational problems of Sept. showed how quickly it is to dent finances.
But it is also very likely that AA will ramp up fairly quickly and alot of OH jobs will be lost - not just here in the US but w/o replacement overseas for at least a period of a couple years, and maybe alot longer.

What kind of preparations are you seeing at AA maintenance for the Airbus fleet?

I suspect AA will pay a high price for screwing over their mechanics, there really isnt any reason for the guys to ramp up quickly, sure USAIR claims a slight performance improvement as they got new aircraft but they were mostly new versions of fleets they already had, and USAIR simplified their fleet but when you look at the money spent, and how slight the improvement was there is no way the new aircraft are paying for themselves as far as maint costs. With AA they will be adding new fleet types that we never worked before, the Airbus's, 787s etc.

AA management should have read Gorden Bethunes book "from worst to first".

While Pilots primary mode of exodus will be retirement driven attrition at AA, they will be losing mechanics through retirement and competition not only from other carriers but from other industries. For example recent newspaper ads by the MTA actually called for aircraft mechanics. The starting pay is much higher than AA's starting pay, they also offer a Pension, much better medical plan, more than double the Holidays, more than double the vacation, more than double the sick time. Basically all the stuff we lost, even an OT meal allowance that's 65% higher than what we used to get. So kids out of school may be drawn to airplanes but six months of nights, working weekends and holidays, plus being made aware that at AA they are the bottom of the barrel in every measure will surely send them packing. We have guys with nearly 20 years quitting. Like I said at 51 I may as well stick around for four more years, so if I do get out at least I can count on a small pension check to suppliment my "starting over" paycheck, but as tempting as the MTA is there is no way will I take another job that requires an even longer commute and working nights. Dont care if I ever touch a new Airbus or 787, (I used to be like a Kid and get all excited about learning and working new planes, its not age that changed me, I'm as immature as I ever was, its what the company did to us) , so like pretty much everyone else who is too old to leave we'll just bide our time and ignore the "Ra Ra" speeches. Sure there may be a few heroes left but one by one they too give up as they realize that what AA pays us tells us how they really feel about us. AA doesnt feel we are worth what other carriers feel their mechanics are worth, so why fight it? Prove them right. Do for AA what AA has done for you, quid pro quo, place AA among its peers as AA has placed us amongst our peers.

 

[Overspeed]

I suspect AA will pay a high price for screwing over their mechanics, there really isnt any reason for the guys to ramp up quickly, sure USAIR claims a slight performance improvement as they got new aircraft but they were mostly new versions of fleets they already had, and USAIR simplified their fleet but when you look at the money spent, and how slight the improvement was there is no way the new aircraft are paying for themselves as far as maint costs. With AA they will be adding new fleet types that we never worked before, the Airbus's, 787s etc.

AA management should have read Gorden Bethunes book "from worst to first".

While Pilots primary mode of exodus will be retirement driven attrition at AA, they will be losing mechanics through retirement and competition not only from other carriers but from other industries. For example recent newspaper ads by the MTA actually called for aircraft mechanics. The starting pay is much higher than AA's starting pay, they also offer a Pension, much better medical plan, more than double the Holidays, more than double the vacation, more than double the sick time. Basically all the stuff we lost, even an OT meal allowance that's 65% higher than what we used to get. So kids out of school may be drawn to airplanes but six months of nights, working weekends and holidays, plus being made aware that at AA they are the bottom of the barrel in every measure will surely send them packing. We have guys with nearly 20 years quitting. Like I said at 51 I may as well stick around for four more years, so if I do get out at least I can count on a small pension check to suppliment my "starting over" paycheck, but as tempting as the MTA is there is no way will I take another job that requires an even longer commute and working nights. Dont care if I ever touch a new Airbus or 787, (I used to be like a Kid and get all excited about learning and working new planes, its not age that changed me, I'm as immature as I ever was, its what the company did to us) , so like pretty much everyone else who is too old to leave we'll just bide our time and ignore the "Ra Ra" speeches. Sure there may be a few heroes left but one by one they too give up as they realize that what AA pays us tells us how they really feel about us. AA doesnt feel we are worth what other carriers feel their mechanics are worth, so why fight it? Prove them right. Do for AA what AA has done for you, quid pro quo, place AA among its peers as AA has placed us amongst our peers.

Bob what was Gordon Bethune's first big cost cutting measure in 1994? Shutdown DEN, LAX, and HOU/IAH overhaul stations. So Gordon is your example of what to do? Should have told Horton that. He would have been ecstatic. You quote stuff you apparently have never read.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob what was Gordon Bethune's first big cost cutting measure in 1994? Shutdown DEN, LAX, and HOU/IAH overhaul stations. So Gordon is your example of what to do? Should have told Horton that. He would have been ecstatic. You quote stuff you apparently have never read.

Dont recall that being in the book. Did you read it? Admittedly I read it a long time ago. As far as I know CAL still has OH in HOU, so they went from three to one. We are going from three to two, possibly one because with the language we gave them they can run operations similar to CAL and UAL but do it while paying their mechanics much, much less, thanks to you and your YES vote.


So even if what you say is true, the question is could AA have outsourced all that work in a short timeframe? trade publication and the media repeatedly cite the skills shortage, something the industry hasnt seen in our careers to the extent we see it now. If AAR is having trouble recruiting workers for the work they already have then how could they take on AA's work? AA will likley be trying to hire off the street before you know it. Their foray into outsourcing line maint isnt going so well either. Times were different then, but some truths remain, if you dont treat your workers well they will return the favor. Bottom of the industry pay, benifits and workrules do not a good employer make.

 

[bigjets]

Bob what was Gordon Bethune's first big cost cutting measure in 1994? Shutdown DEN, LAX, and HOU/IAH overhaul stations. So Gordon is your example of what to do? Should have told Horton that. He would have been ecstatic. You quote stuff you apparently have never read.

and look at the strength of that airline now, we had a lot of maint but a financially unviable airline, $22 billion in debt and $4 billion cash. I would rather have a strong future at AA then have a lot of jobs that keep our wages down. AA is not a social experiment, but a corporation with the expectation of making a profit. I don't pay union dues because I like to give to charity, If I get laidoff at least I'll come back to good paying job with motivated employees, instead of what we have now.


UAL's mechs got a $11k signing bonus, we got the worst contract in the airline industry for the next 6-10 years. You might be close to retirement but the rest of us aren't.

 

[Bob Owens]

and look at the strength of that airline now, we had a lot of maint but a financially unviable airline, $22 billion in debt and $4 billion cash. I would rather have a strong future at AA then have a lot of jobs that keep our wages down. AA is not a social experiment, but a corporation with the expectation of making a profit. I don't pay union dues because I like to give to charity, If I get laidoff at least I'll come back to good paying job with motivated employees, instead of what we have now.


UAL's mechs got a $11k signing bonus, we got the worst contract in the airline industry for the next 6-10 years. You might be close to retirement but the rest of us aren't.

People like Overspin can afford to engage in Social Experiments with other peoples professions because he doesnt have to live with the results.

 

[Anomaly]

People like Overspin can afford to engage in Social Experiments with other peoples professions because he doesnt have to live with the results.

This is funny coming from you....

Do you live with the results? Did you accept an elected position and then commit support to another union? Did you voice your opinion only to have the membership VOTE a different direction? Do you continue to voice your position contrary to the majorities desires? Is this YOUR idea of living with the results?

 

[Bob Owens]

This is funny coming from you....

Do you live with the results?

YES

Did you accept an elected position and then commit support to another union?

NO

Did you voice your opinion only to have the membership VOTE a different direction?

The people who elected me voted 96% against this.

Do you continue to voice your position contrary to the majorities desires?

Is it? It passed by 46 votes, or so we are told. People were told that this would save jobs, it hasnt.

Is this YOUR idea of living with the results?

I suppose so, just not quietly.

 

[Rogallo]

It passed by 46 votes, or so we are told. People were told that this would save jobs, it hasnt.

So, I assume the official results signed by ballotpoint have never been seen.....except by a certain few!! h34r: h34r:

 

[Bob Owens]

So, I assume the official results signed by ballotpoint have never been seen.....except by a certain few!! h34r: h34r:

Contract ratification votes are not held to the same standards as the election of Local officers. The International changed their policy of releasing all the totals as they have done up until this contract cycle. All of a sudden they only release each locals counts to each local. We are the only ones that do this that I know of.

Ballott Point allows the client to monitor vote totals, not how individual members cast votes but will provide running tallies, so whoever was running it would know exactly how the vote was going in real time and know where to campaign for a desired result, and its not illegal. IIRC they can also provide who has not voted.

 

[Overspeed]

Dont recall that being in the book. Did you read it? Admittedly I read it a long time ago. As far as I know CAL still has OH in HOU, so they went from three to one. We are going from three to two, possibly one because with the language we gave them they can run operations similar to CAL and UAL but do it while paying their mechanics much, much less, thanks to you and your YES vote.


So even if what you say is true, the question is could AA have outsourced all that work in a short timeframe? trade publication and the media repeatedly cite the skills shortage, something the industry hasnt seen in our careers to the extent we see it now. If AAR is having trouble recruiting workers for the work they already have then how could they take on AA's work? AA will likley be trying to hire off the street before you know it. Their foray into outsourcing line maint isnt going so well either. Times were different then, but some truths remain, if you dont treat your workers well they will return the favor. Bottom of the industry pay, benifits and workrules do not a good employer make.

Bethune brags about reducing maintenance costs from just over $700M to just over $450M. Read the book and ask an ex-Con.

 

[Overspeed]

People like Overspin can afford to engage in Social Experiments with other peoples professions because he doesnt have to live with the results.

You should talk. You are willing to put all of overhaul at risk so you can "fight" for more money for you and your elite band of line mechanics. That's an experiment AMFA dud already at NWA, UA, and AS and the outcome was...outsource most of overhaul.