$ 892.00 This Week For Isp-phl R/t

[JS]

I tried to do an ISP-PIT or LGA-PIT outbound Friday back Saturday, and the fare was over $900 in both cases. I was prepared to drive the trip, then on a lark decided to try PHL-PIT and got fares between $98 and $138!! So instead of driving 400 miles I will drive about 120 and fly. And 700UW, I started pricing 2 weeks before the trip date.

For the record, at $138, they still make a small profit, as the approximate COST of flying me from PHL to PIT is under $30.00, and the base fare before taxes is close to $50 each way.

Art, the cost of flying someone from point A to point B is not a constant 10 cents (or 7 cents or some fixed value like that) per mile. The per mile cost is just an average.

For example, the IRS says that the average cost of driving is 40 cents per mile. Would you expect a taxi driver to drive you a distance of half a mile for 20 cents, and when he wants $2.00, you scream price-gouging and offer double "break-even", or 40 cents? Of course not; there is a lot of overhead involved in driving an automobile, and a half mile trip is below average. So it is with airlines. CASM times the number of miles for any one particular trip (short or long) is a fake number and must be ignored.

It appears they would rather have empty seats than a rational fare. I would have paid up to $300 to fly from LGA, but NOOOO.

US is far too large to negotiate individual fares. They have no idea how much you are willing to pay.

Leaving ISP for PIT on a Friday and coming back the following day two weeks from now, which would be August 12-13, is $455 roundtrip including tax on Delta , with a connection in CVG.

LGA-PIT on the same dates can be had for $285 roundtrip including tax on UA with a connection in IAD.

I have said it before and will say it again. The EDUCATED business traveler doesn't need artificially low fares--we want FAIR fares. Apparently, HP gets it. They have a rationalized fare structure and they made money. I can't wait for their pricing to prevail throughout the new US Airways system.

It IS the fares, stupid......

My best to you all...

[post="283770"][/post]​

HP pricing is not WN pricing, but I agree it's better than US' dartboard method.

 

[deelmakur]

What makes no sense on these fares in suburban markets like ISP and HPN is that they want to price them to business flyers at a fare so high it would buy you a couple of household appliances. Then you get on the flight, and find it full of excursion pax who have paid 180 bucks to go to Florida via the various hubs. In the latter case, they have sold tickets to these people at a rate slightly higher than LGA, but only by 30 to 50 dollars, which they presumably think covers the Express tag.

 

[Art at ISP]

Art, the cost of flying someone from point A to point B is not a constant 10 cents (or 7 cents or some fixed value like that) per mile. The per mile cost is just an average.

For example, the IRS says that the average cost of driving is 40 cents per mile. Would you expect a taxi driver to drive you a distance of half a mile for 20 cents, and when he wants $2.00, you scream price-gouging and offer double "break-even", or 40 cents? Of course not; there is a lot of overhead involved in driving an automobile, and a half mile trip is below average. So it is with airlines. CASM times the number of miles for any one particular trip (short or long) is a fake number and must be ignored.
US is far too large to negotiate individual fares. They have no idea how much you are willing to pay.

Leaving ISP for PIT on a Friday and coming back the following day two weeks from now, which would be August 12-13, is $455 roundtrip including tax on Delta , with a connection in CVG.

LGA-PIT on the same dates can be had for $285 roundtrip including tax on UA with a connection in IAD.
HP pricing is not WN pricing, but I agree it's better than US' dartboard method.

[post="283977"][/post]​

JS--

Point taken about "average" CASM, but even at a fair price it would have been profitable. Regarding what I would have been willing to pay, you missed the point. I realize they don't negotiate, but they should realize that it would be better to have 20 or 30 last minute fares at $300-$400 than none at $900. We're fed up with the gouging. There is no legitimate reason to charge $900 for a 270 mile trip, other than to subsidize the loser fares they are promoting in other markets.

We never advocated the $29 to $49 fares-they are losers and are not necessary. If they had had a marketing department which could have pointed out the advantages of US over WN and other LCC's (the people, the services), they never would have had to go toe to toe with LCC's on price. Business travelers like us are looking more for value than super cheap fares. We accept the low fares if offered, but would pay a FAIR price for last minute travel.

While HP is not the cheapest in the market, they are reasonable for the most part. RATIONAL fares are not necessarily CHEAP fares.

They're never going to make everyone happy, but the HP fare structure should be a step in the right direction.

My best to you all....

 

[Bear96]

JS--

Point taken about "average" CASM, but even at a fair price it would have been profitable.

[post="284031"][/post]​

One comment I have always had about your "fair fare" thoughts, Art, is how do you decide what is "fair"? There has to be some context / background against which to measure and evaluate it.

Right now you are throwing out $300 as a "fair" price because it is so much lower than what is out there -- therefore by comparison it seems reasonable. But if the average fare was indeed $300, I have no doubt that soon consumers would be screaming about how expensive THAT is.

Not sure I am adding anything to the discussion but really, who should determine "fair"? If people are willing to pay a price, isn't it "fair"?

 

[JS]

JS--

Point taken about "average" CASM, but even at a fair price it would have been profitable. Regarding what I would have been willing to pay, you missed the point. I realize they don't negotiate, but they should realize that it would be better to have 20 or 30 last minute fares at $300-$400 than none at $900. We're fed up with the gouging. There is no legitimate reason to charge $900 for a 270 mile trip, other than to subsidize the loser fares they are promoting in other markets.

We never advocated the $29 to $49 fares-they are losers and are not necessary. If they had had a marketing department which could have pointed out the advantages of US over WN and other LCC's (the people, the services), they never would have had to go toe to toe with LCC's on price. Business travelers like us are looking more for value than super cheap fares. We accept the low fares if offered, but would pay a FAIR price for last minute travel.

While HP is not the cheapest in the market, they are reasonable for the most part. RATIONAL fares are not necessarily CHEAP fares.

They're never going to make everyone happy, but the HP fare structure should be a step in the right direction.

My best to you all....

[post="284031"][/post]​

I agree, except that $300 roundtrip including tax for a last-minute trip is a WN price, which simply won't work except on WN.

What were other airlines charging for your travel dates? Were they similar to what I posted above?

 

[deelmakur]

Thanks to the management effort to deflect blame from their own mistakes (and this has happened at all carriers) there has been a tendency to blame what the passenger pays for all the current woes, and that sometimes works its way into the interaction between employee and customer. Firstly, we don't set the fares. The company does. When you hit a search engine, and US is 20 or 30 percent higher than anyone else, it means people go elsewhere. That is the American way of business. If it weren't, people like Costco and Home Depot would never have gotten so big. I ride the system, and I see seat maps with unfilled F cabins, and special front rows of coach seating set aside for DM elites, with empties, the night before a flight. I see people in F class offering to pay for drinks, which indicates operational upgrading. It's not about CASM's. First, its about the dopes who misprice the product, then fill it in with Priceline traffic, deep sixing their own yields. Secondly, the airline business is notorious for high, non cash (depreciation and amortization) expense, which needs to be added back in to calculate the real operating profit. So for starters, the CASM calculation isn't necessarily reflective of actual cost. More to the point, as CO and AA have moved to more realistic pricing, they appear to be returning to profit. US, which, thanks to bankruptcy, has lower costs, still can't seem to do that. So next time people are ruminating about pax not paying what is fair, please remember, the market place makes that decision. And be glad you're carrying freebies and other flotsam in the front cabin, because if people were paying real money for that, you'd have trouble looking them in the eye, if you have any recollection of service standards before all this crap with plastic cups and disappearing pretzels started.

 

[jimntx]

I agree, except that $300 roundtrip including tax for a last-minute trip is a WN price, which simply won't work except on WN.

What were other airlines charging for your travel dates? Were they similar to what I posted above?

[post="284075"][/post]​

Well, even if $300 works only for SWA, can you really say that a price 3 times what SW charges is justifiable? If you need to charge 3 times what a competitor charges to deliver the same product, you have a problem. And, let's not forget that it isn't the same product. On SWA you would be flying on a 737--granted with no advance seat assignment. IIRC, the $892 fare was on an RJ--not at all "delivering the same product."

 

[JS]

Well, even if $300 works only for SWA, can you really say that a price 3 times what SW charges is justifiable?  If you need to charge 3 times what a competitor charges to deliver the same product, you have a problem.  And, let's not forget that it isn't the same product.  On SWA you would be flying on a 737--granted with no advance seat assignment.  IIRC, the $892 fare was on an RJ--not at all "delivering the same product."

[post="284113"][/post]​

It's not really justifiable or unjustifiable; it's just a price. ISP-PIT is not a US monopoly market airport or even a monopoly non-stop route, since it requires a connection on any airline.

I don't know why US is charging more (could be the fare rules or it could be a lack of seat inventory), and I frankly don't care. I found lower fares out of ISP and still lower out of LGA on other airlines, so if I were in Art's shoes, I would fly someone else and quit complaining.

 

[Art at ISP]

JS,

There were no alternatives from ISP, and for the record, the $939 was from LGA to PIT, not ISP. The $892 quoted by the OP, was ISP-PHL!!!!! which is a monopoly at the moment.

The funny thing is, ISP-PHL-PIT priced at $892, while the same flights PHL-PIT and back priced as low as $98, so clearly the gouging is on the ISP route. A ripoff is still a ripoff.

Also, JS, I am not complaining as much as making a statement as to why they are failing. The old pricing formulas do not work any more, and the rational price schedules which have been implemented by other carriers have already proven somewhat successful.

It's a moot point because when HP takes over, their fare scheme should prevail.

 

[trvlr64]

Hey the big 3 car makers introduced EMPLOYEE PRICING, maybe the airlines should do this too!! I could get used to paying airline employee prices for my flights.

B)

 

[tadjr]

Hey the big 3 car makers introduced EMPLOYEE PRICING, maybe the airlines should do this too!! I could get used to paying airline employee prices for my flights.

B)

[post="284177"][/post]​

I've got a good book you can read while you're waiting to get on a flight too! B)

 

[trvlr64]

I've got a good book you can read while you're waiting to get on a flight too! B)

[post="284264"][/post]​

SEE! The flights would be full then with all those low paying customers. OH WAIT!! They already are. It's us business people that are taking it in the shorts so Ma & Pa and the Kettletts can go to Disney!!

 

[insp89]

Hey the big 3 car makers introduced EMPLOYEE PRICING, maybe the airlines should do this too!! I could get used to paying airline employee prices for my flights.

B)

[post="284177"][/post]​

No problem, Employee Pricing for everyone....Just one catch...

First you have to agree to take a 30% paycut, lose your pension, and work 3rd shift at YOUR job... B)

 

[PHL]

You could always take the train. It's not that far.

JS, being that you're from outside the great NE(according to your profile), and probably consider Islip and New York City one in the same, let us educate you.

Yes, you can take the Long Island Railroad from Ronkonkoma to New York Penn Station (about 70-90 minutes, depending on peak/off peak), and then connect to an Amtrak Regional or Acela (about 60-75 minutes, depending on train). Of course the LIRR and Amtrak don't coordinate schedules so the layover could be up to about an hour, making total city to city time around 3-4 hours. This is assuming that there are no delays on your LIRR or Amtrak segments, too.

The ISP-PHL flight is about 45 minutes in the air, plus another hour or so in airport foot time (check-in curb to arrival curb). So, there's a significant time savings flying - even on a rickety old Dash 8. Art's got it, just as JetBlue and Southwest do - the fares US charges on routes like this are ill-conceived.

Taking away the time factor, the train is a far more pleasant experience in terms of hassle and freedom to move around. Too bad the LIRR doesn't have a quicker route into Manhattan, because a lot of people in NYC might use it.

 

[pitflyer]

Yeah, I'm trying to get four people who live ten minutes from LGA to my house ten minutes from PIT. LGA-PIT, even with plenty of advance notice and on a weekend, is nearly $400. As aforementioned, PHL-PIT is $80, bus from New York to Philadelphia is $20 and both NYC and Philadelphia have public transit for a few bucks each to connect from home/downtown/airports, so total is about $120.

Still quite a shuffle, so instead I told these (very cheap) people to fly LGA-CLE -- which due to AirTran, is only $136 total .. and I'm driving the two hours to pick them up. So Continental gets the $550 and USAirways gets nothing...