What Hepac Can Do For You

[Nomex]

Gosh, everyone is getting along great - could it be because "cap" is back?

As far as the fee, I guess it would help to have some idea where the money would be spent and thus the requirement for $200 vs $50 (probably Blackmac had enlightened the readers somewhere earlier, but sorry can't recall now). $50 will likely get a lot more interest, maybe with it being an introductory rate and an increase may be required down the road once the ducks are lined up and expenses have firmed up a bit....

 

[Blackmac]

In the begining Don created HEPAC and proceeded to get an idea on what to charge as an assoc. fee. $200. was on the low end of fee structures for association fee's. You are free to check around and contradict me. Do not compare with the PHPA down south as they have a larger population and really don't do anything except unionize companies. Is that what you want????

Check the HAC fee, yes you can become a member, but what will they do for you????

Not being a miracle worker, but if you ever intend to get anything working as far as forming committee's to deal with the items mentioned so far, there will be expenses involved for the members, which will be paid for by the membership.

We are incapable of borrowing money to meet any costs and as I have stated before no other assoc. will donate anything.

So, I'm leaving this up to you guys.

Come up with a budget and forcasted expenditure for the next year and tell me what the fee should be.

Remember this is YOUR association and if you want to keep it going, state the direction.

Think this out and tell me what you think, realistically.

Cheers, Don

 

[bubbleboy]

HEPAC: I am not trying to to stir things up here, and there is no hidden agenda. I think you know that I am a outspoken supporter of HEPAC. In word. :unsure:

As someone who has yet to pay his membership, I have no business deciding the direction of HEPAC.

I want to see results from HEPAC, but I am willing to wait for the returns. It sounds like you want to hit the ground running and start addressing the "big ticket" issues. I admire that, but maybe it would be better to start with more generic tasks.

I also understand the desire to "get at it" because the membership(the results oriented group they are) will expect benefits that prove HEPAC is working. The old "what does it get me" attitude. My response would be directed at those members - BE PATIENT, this will take time to gather momentum and become effective. Do not pay the dues and expect our world to change overnight.

Give us an idea of what HEPAC thinks it's costs will be to justify the $200 fee. Would it be possible to have a lesser initial fee with non-voting rights? Could I pay the $200 with installments. I know that requires some extra administration, but is it an option? If the "minister of finance" finds a cashed $200 cheque right now, I've got some e'splainin to do.

It's human nature, most of us would rather risk a little than a lot. Hey in a few years, after HEPAC has accomplished some positive things, maybe the rates will be up, and we''ll have more spare cash....I digress.

Have you promoted the grass-roots method of getting the message out, or are you trying to get the funds in place for a more glitzy type of ad campaign? I have in the past stuck my neck out to promote this face to face. I would be willing to continue doing this, are there others?

Respectfully.

bubblebutt :hide:

 

[jetbox]

This is just me thinking out loud but if we want to attract more members, you need exposure=advertizing elswhere than in this forum=helicopter magazines etc...
I don't have a clue how much that kind of advertizing costs but does HEPAC have enough funds already to cover such expenses??? If not, how much would be needed to advertize in 2 or 3 different publications??? (which ones would be best is certainly debatable but I suppose you got to start somewhere )

P.S. Can we pay the fee with VISA, MasterCard etc?????? B)

 

[jetbox]

Here's another question:
I find myself in a fantastic position, meaning I enjoy the company I work for, I don't mind the location I live in, everybody in the company gets along famously well with each other and we all get paid well above $60000 a year (except for low time pilots and apprentices)
In other words, I really don't have any concerns or issues that I can't handle myself within the company since we have very good communication between management and emplyees (I should probably mention that I and most of the other employees are part owners of this company; we are a small outfit but nonetheless)
So my point is this: in what areas would HEPAC be able to help me, if I were a member?
I should also add that there is no pressure none whatsoever within this company for engineers to rush or comprimise their work or for pilots to fly overgross/in bad weather etc. In fact, I can assure you that if we got wind that one our pilots had pulled a hammer head or any other stupid stunt, he/she would be fired in about 2 seconds!!!
Therefore, I need a little bit more clarification on the benefits of HEPAC (there are no doubt many!) for an employee in my position before I fork out $200.
I don't necessarily have a problem joining eventough this association might benefit others much more than me.

 

[cyclic monkey]

Jetbox, I am also lucky to work for a great team, just like you.
But there were times in my career that I worked for some real gorillas that had no consideration for the interests of young monkeys. You probably did too.

I believe in strength in numbers........(not in the trade-union/strike-action sense).......but more members will give the Association more credibility.
This level of credibility will determine whether the gorillas decide to clean-up their act if the Association mentions (in some form) that the membership is disappointed with that sort of treatment of pilots/engineers.

Though I don't NEED to join, I am very interested to join (if some issues are cleared up) just to help my fellow pilots/engineers. I hope you other guys that are treated well will consider joining, too.

 

[downwash]

Good to see Cap back, together with his usually well-considered perspective, and have to agree with 'the Rev' that far too many things are over-complicated by people with overly-simple minds (at least, that's what I think he was saying).

I think BM (or Don, if he so prefers) has unintentionally cosmogrified the 'issue' of his baby with his very individual (and, in many ways, admirable) straightforwardness. Too many of us are reluctant to hear a spade called one, especially if someone is suggesting we put it to use.

 

[Blackmac]

Guys/Gals; You wonder why I get frustrated. HEPAC is not me,it is every engineer and pilot out there that wants to make a difference.

If you guys cannot see that, then we are wasting our time in this endless chatter.

Of course some people have no need of association as they are well looked after by there respective companies.

I never had any problems when I worked in the industry, but I know a heck of alot that did.

My purpose in creating this entity was not to hassle anybody or company, only to get people eng/pilots together to better there lot as a whole, and as group quit riding on the coattails of the CAMC, ATAC, HAC and HAI.

I am a one man show, so please explain to me how I can except VISA.

All membership cheques are deposited in HEPAC bank account.

I believe I have done my part in giving back to an industry and way of life that I loved.

YOUR HEPAC will not do anything for you in the near future, not until there are enough members to form committees to address the issue's.

There is no more money coming out of my pocket for this endeavour.

Somebody started a survey on what membership fee to charge. Everybody wants something for nothing.

I guess we could suck everybody in at a low rate and then double it later on as there will be NO money to do anything.

$200 for beer =avg $4/per beer = 50 beers in the bar, not even a beer a week.

If you can afford that, you can afford the assoc. fee's.

I would say we give membership to the newbies at no cost, until employed.

IMHO

Cheers Don

 

[Heli Ops]

Blackmac & HEPAC,

How about having a catergory of membership for associate type members. Obviously people like Mike Reyno and myself may not be pilots or engineers but would still like to support the new association, as would many others no doubt.

If you limit it just to pilots & engineers then you might be leaving out a group of people that could be very beneficial to the association, both financially and support wise.

Would welcome your thoughts on adding an associate membership catergory.

Heli Ops

 

[Albert Ross]

We could set up a paypal account, and accept credit cards that way - you just need to tell them your account details so you can withdraw the cash. I use it myself, and it works well. Would be happy to do it if you could pm the details

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

Thanks Albert, but I would rather have an elected board of Directors make those decisions on behalf of HEPAC. The directors at present including me could be voted out, as we were only required to set this thing in motion on the application.

Thanks anyhow.

Cheers Don

 

[MagSeal]

OK, I'll dip my big toe in and test the waters again...

How will HEPAC change things?

Heavy handedness, gentle coersion (sp??).

I can't see how a group of people banded together can change the thinking of the 'bad apples'. They have their ways, set in stone in their minds, and they also know they have the prey of many starving pilots and engineers who are willing to work the crap for the short term to pay their bills. I can't see a gung ho fresh pilot, 40 grand in debt, caring much to shell out more money to possibly cut himself off from getting that first start.

You will make by-laws, but where's the teeth? Is it purely a numbers game?

 

[cap]

Chuck, you ain't illiterate at all. Haven't you heard.........when you get old, you get stupid. We have Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany to thank for that. He's the one that dreamed up the idea that at 65 everyone should retire. The reason for that age was apparently that the numbers that lived to or past that age were few in number.

About pilots, I always fall back on what my grandad said many years ago and the longer I was in the business the more sense it made to me. He felt that large airline pilots were a "different breed of horse altogether" in that they were closer to "normal". Pilots that flew in the bush, both fixed wing and helicopter, were used to being on their own, relying on their own brains and abilities to save their "butts" on almost a daily basis. There would also be many times when if they were to crash and remain conscious, they might lay there for days before assistance came. They got to know inlets, bays and trees almost on a first-name basis. They would know that in bad weather all they had to do was fly down that creek, find that real weird looking tree on that odd shaped bend in the creek and about 500 yds farther was the end of the landing strip, safety, warmth, a meal and a shot of the "good stuff". The very nature of this "beast" means that he won't lead, follow or be pushed into any decision without thinking about it long and hard..........because in his world if one moves or decides too quickly, it can be one's last move. So he will proably rely on that weird looking tree that he knows about rather than someone telling 270 degrees in that direction for 5 minutes gets you to the end of the strip.

Granted, that comes from the days of Sarah Beacons, Radio Range and R1340's, but I think it still applies in this day of GPS, SARSAT and bleed air heaters. We've all still had those moments when we had to rely on the same instincts as the pilots that have since grown old and fat or went to the "big hangar in the sky".

The association will get done, but first a whole bunch of pilots have to fly over or around that landing spot a bunch of times and check it closely before they commit to landing there. They've been fooled too often or fooled themselves too often and they ain't takin' any chances. I once read that the difference between a fixed wing pilot and a helicopter pilot was this: when the fixed wing driver takes off, he sees no reason why he won't get to his destination and on time. The helicopter pilot has full intentions of doing the same, but he's been screwed by the aircraft, weather or such too many times and he ain't 100% sure he'll get there without something going wrong.........so he always got a plan B.....just in case.

 

[helicopper]

heli-ops... re your inquiry re associate membership... while our by-laws have apparently not been updated re membership fees specifically, i would suggest you and mr. reyno et al would certainly be both VERY welcome as well as qualify under the existing by-laws...

"CONDITIONS OF MEMBERSHIP. Membership in the corporation shall be limited to persons interested in furthering the objects (objectives) of the corporation and seeking to improve the profession of helicopter engineering and piloting and shall consist of anyone whose application as a member has received the approval of the board of directors of the corporation".

undoubtedly, it would be in HEPAC's best interests to utilize any/all industry-specific media communications available to us... particularly, the professional products provided by heli-ops and vertical.

bottom line... subject to the official approval of the other two directors... welcome aboard... feel free to contact myself or don re how HEPAC will make expedient use of your first barrel of ink!!

mulligan
HEPAC2

 

[Ryan]

I would say we give membership to the newbies at no cost, until employed.

Wow...very generous offer. I like it.
Based on that offer you got yourself another member once I finish my training.