Upset Eagle Pilots

[operaations]

That letter just shows that who ever wrote it has no class. If a person uses ther contractual right to move to another job in order to provide for himself and his or her family...what is wrong with that. If Eagle did not want flowback than they should not have agreed to it. I think whoever wrote that letter is a coward. They have such stron words and convictions but yet they hide behind an unsigned letter.

 

[smfav8r]

jetdryvr,

You hit the nail on the head about same training, speed, altitude and environment as the mainline counterparts....a DC9-10/F100 is not much bigger than an RJ, but the pay is a lot better!!!!

That's where the problem lays....as a pilot group, (regionals and mainlines) we need to put a stop to the piss poor wages at the RJ level....it's got to stop!!!

This is the primary reason for the friction between the mailine and regional groups.....If all the ALPA members at both of the groups got together on this....maybe we could stop fighting each other and find a solution to the problem!!! Just my two cents!!!

Keep the greasy side down and the pointy end foward!!

 

[buddies8]

There is a big misunderstanding by AA pilots regarding the AE pilots complaint. Let met try to clarify.

1997 apa/alpa signed supp w/letter 3. This was to allow 1 for every 2 new hires at AA to be AE pilots and allow AA pilots to flowback to AE if furloughed. AA pilots would take the amount of Capt seats equall to the amount of CJ
pilots whom have elected to flow through to AA under supp w/letter 3. The unofficial number of elected flow through pilots is about 520 captain positions.

APA and AMR knowing full well that supp w /letter 3 requires ALL 4 parties to agree did not allow the ALPA MEC to be in negotiations when it directly related to supp w/letter 3. This after ALPA MEC informed both AMR and APA of this requirement.

APA and AMR proceeded to change the method of how an AA pilot furloughed would flow back to AE. The first TA required no AE flow through pilot to be displaced but APA got all Capt seats on the CRJ700, all capt seats on any aircraft 51+ seats and all capt seats on 50 seat aircraft above current fleet size at Eagle. Now you have to run some numbers and assume all aircraft were coming to Eagle and not to AMERICAN CONNECTION (AC). APA gave on scope of 110% of narrow body fleet at AA for rj fleet. That equates to 660 rj aircraft. AT best eagle has 175 rj's and AC about 50 rj's.
Thats about 225 rj's there is still 435 rj's unaccounted for. Now just on the 435 rj's that can be ordered at 5 capts positions per a/c equals 2175 Capt positions given to AA pilots not counting the CRJ700. The first TA gave APA conceivably 2300 pilot positions where supp w/letter 3 gave 520 positions for flow backs.
This is where the AE pilots ar complaining. That is why we say to AMR/APA comply with supp w/letter 3.

The revised TA gives APA all aircraft 50 seats or above plus the 520 AE displacements.

AMR and APA did away with supp w/letter 3 provisions. The APA pilots are being told AE pilots dont want suppw/letter 3 implemented. Well, yes, but not for what you are thinking. I am an elected flow through, so I will be displaced by an AA flow back, but that is allowed by supp w/letter 3 and as long as it is followed exactly I can not complain, that is the agreement. But to send more flowbacks than there are flowthrough positions is in violation of supp w/letter 3 and that is what we are complaining about.

So if I confused anyone,let me clear it up.
There are 520 Flowback positions THATS ALL under supp w/letter 3, no more than that. Thats is all that is alowed under supp w/letter 3 anything beyond that violates the agreement. This problem and cofusion has been made by APA BOD thinking that we would not be able to count. 2300-520= 1780 Capt positions that APA is not authorized to have or take from Eagle pilots.

If APA wants these positions this bad why not get AMR to start another airline like US Airways is doing with MID ATLANTIC then AE pilots would not be able to complain.

Does anyone actually read supp w/letter 3 and compare it to the TA? Does anyone see a difference in the flowback methods? That is the problem.

 

[AirwAr]

It would seem to me that the best way to resolve these issues is for the Eagle pilots to vote in APA to represent them. Sure, in the short term Eagle pilots may take it in the shorts, but over time these issues would work themselves out.

Eventually you wouldn't have the situation where a 2-year AA pilot is displacing a 10-year Eagle pilot. The newest, lower paid employees will be at the bottom of the list where they should be. When it comes time for layoffs, they'll start from the bottom up, instead of from the middle as it is now.

Conversely, when (if) AA begins hiring, 100% of the pilots would flow up from Eagle.

We are 2 great airlines with one great future. Eventually, we would become 1 airline with a "C" scale operation on certain aircraft types.

 

[Cleared Direct]

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On 7/31/2003 1125 PM AirwAr wrote:

It would seem to me that the best way to resolve these issues is for the Eagle pilots to vote in APA to represent them. Sure, in the short term Eagle pilots may take it in the shorts, but over time these issues would work themselves out.

Eventually you wouldn't have the situation where a 2-year AA pilot is displacing a 10-year Eagle pilot. The newest, lower paid employees will be at the bottom of the list where they should be. When it comes time for layoffs, they'll start from the bottom up, instead of from the middle as it is now.

Conversely, when (if) AA begins hiring, 100% of the pilots would flow up from Eagle.

We are 2 great airlines with one great future. Eventually, we would become 1 airline with a "C" scale operation on certain aircraft types.
----------------
AirwAr,
I don't no how long you have been around AMR and how much history that you know about Eagle, but at one time Eagle pilots were represented by APA. The first wholly owned American Eagle carrier was Flagship Airlines and they were represented by APA. It's a long story but in the end, APA chose not to renew their representation of Eagle pilots at Flagship. In part APA made this decision because they perceived a conflict of interest. This was right before the emergence of RJs in the feed industry.
Even if Eagle pilots were represented by APA today does not mean that there would be one company. AMR can keep the companies separate just like they did at Eagle even after we won the single carrier petition. Hiring and furloughs could continue separately at each company still. APA already does a bad enough job trying to take all of our future vacancies, I can only imagine how much worse it would be if they actually represented us. You are correct though in the idea of getting together to stop the erosion of the job at AMR. We participated in the UNITY campaign with APA and were part of the Labor Coalition at AMR. Darrah even said that one list was his major item that should be resolved in section 6 negotiations. Unfortunately he was not only unsuccessful, but even during the UNITY campaign he was negotiating with AMR to illegally attempt to grab as much from Eagle for his junior pilots that he knew were going to be furloughed. Darrah has failed at a great opportunity to fix the situation. He has made the situation much worse to the detriment of the industry, AA pilots, and Eagle pilots. If APA was to give up so much in concessions than they should have at least recaptured all flying to be done by APA! Instead now in addition to all the financial concession, they gave up huge on SCOPE to the point of 110% of their narrow bodied flying. And the worse part is that it can now be done by other companies outside of AMR!
Someone is going to take it in the shorts all right. It will start with John Darrah. Then the next will be APA. Eagle ALPA will be close behind as AMR contracts with American Connection and other non-owned carriers to profitably expand with their new Scope relief.
A much more likely scenario would be that APA pilots change to ALPA. It has been slowly picking up more and more support at APA. I'm not so sure that is a good idea either. If you want more information on it go to the site below and go look at all the resent resolutions passed by LGA and even LAX domiciles under the "what's new" section :

[url="http://www.apa2alpa.info"]http://www.apa2alpa.info
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[/URL]

 

[B.N.]

Cleared Direct:
Either I misunderstood what you meant when you said our time would count for pay and retirement, or you are misreading the agreement you posted. Our AA time will count when we are at Eagle for pay and retirement at Eagle, not bidding, per the agreement you highlighted in red. Nowhere does it say, or even imply, we will carry our Eagle time back over to AA. Just like an Eagle flowthrough starts at year one for pay and retirement at AA, our Eagle time will not carry over to AA. Our BOD didn't screw us out of this, you just have to read the contract a little closer.

 

[skyangelnflight]

Arbitrator Sides With Pilots in Dispute

.c The Associated Press

DALLAS (AP) - An arbitrator has blocked a plan to fill many of the
best-paying jobs at American Eagle with pilots laid off from sister
carrier American Airlines.

Pilots at American Eagle, a commuter carrier that operates smaller
planes, complained that they weren't consulted when American and its pilots
union agreed to give laid-off American pilots first crack on Eagle captains' jobs.

The agreement was part of labor concessions that American, the world's
largest carrier, negotiated with pilots and other workers this spring.
Those deals, designed to keep American out of bankruptcy,
are expected to result in layoffs for thousands of American pilots,
who would have been in line for Eagle jobs.

Wednesday's ruling by arbitrator Richard Kasher essentially blocks the
deal. American, American Eagle and the pilots' unions for each carrier must
negotiate over how to fill new jobs at Eagle.

Both airlines are owned by Fort Worth-based AMR Corp.

``If this had not gone our way, every single jet captain position in the
future would have gone to American pilots for the foreseeable future,''
said Dave Ryter, vice chairman for the Air Line Pilots Association's chapter at
Eagle.
``There's a tremendous amount of relief here.''

Ryter told The Dallas Morning News that his members sympathized with
American Airlines pilots who lose their jobs. But, he said, the deal blocked by
the arbitrator would have caused about 1,000 Eagle first officers to wait a
decade or more to move up to captain.

Officials for American and Eagle said the carriers were studying the
18-page ruling. A spokesman for American said the airline would meet with its
pilots' union to discuss the ruling.

John Darrah, president of the pilots' union at American, said several
hundred of his members would still wind up flying for Eagle, but not the 1,000
or more promised in the concession deal. He said the number of American
pilots losing their jobs would be less than the 3,200 projected by the airline
in May.

American has been reducing flights and cutting jobs, but Eagle has been
growing quickly and adding jets.

08/14/03 15:30 EDT
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press.

 

[Duditz]

Potential AA flowbacks should be aware that notwithstanding the provisions of Supp W., re: length of service for pay, Eagle management is taking the position that flowbacks are paid 1st year RJ Capt pay.

 

[AA80Driver]

Potential AA flowbacks should be aware that notwithstanding the provisions of Supp W., re: length of service for pay, Eagle management is taking the position that flowbacks are paid 1st year RJ Capt pay.

AA management is telling potential flowback that they'll be paid for AMR Lenght of Service. It's not too surprising that they don't have their story straight. What a mess.