Update on Flight 718/June 16, 2011 (PHL‐FCO)

[A320 Driver]

Describe the exact circumstances that would result in the A330 relying solely on battery power in flight. (This ought to be good!)

AC 1 and AC 2 unpowered and loss of Green hydraulics.

What's so good about it. Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Driver <_<

 

[A320 Driver]

Most avionic components have a ‘keep alive’ fault logic circuitry designed to last from 2 to 5 seconds after power loss. This can be accomplished by either capacitor banks and/or internal battery backup. Although everyone would like to believe that fault logic is a 100% fool proof indication of a problem, it just isn’t so.
Depending on the fault logic algorithm, some faults may not be recorded due to scheduling of fault logic priority and flight profile. ATE/bench testing may not duplicate a fault as testing does not replicate actual aircraft/flight conditions.

Just my 2 cents
B) xUT

Agreed.
There are faults that are described as "transients" and never show up anywhere and never come up again. All in all still very reliable. A welcome relief for anyone that flew the F-100 when we first got them...

Driver

 

[luvn737s]

AC 1 and AC 2 unpowered and loss of Green hydraulics.

What's so good about it. Sounds like a nightmare to me.

Driver <_<

I think you mean the loss of all green hydraulic fluid, correct?

Isn't there a sensor that closes off the Fire Shutoff Valves if Green qty gets low? So that would also have to fail, correct? Do you have any records of the number of times these simultaneous failures have occurred?

 

[767one]

I think you mean the loss of all green hydraulic fluid, correct?

Isn't there a sensor that closes off the Fire Shutoff Valves if Green qty gets low? So that would also have to fail, correct? Do you have any records of the number of times these simultaneous failures have occurred?

I don't have any records on the airbus but it only takes one failure to make spectacular history. I guess folks might have wondered at one time how a DC-10 could possibly lose all hydraulics but I think that happened more than once.


Bob

 

[A320 Driver]

I think you mean the loss of all green hydraulic fluid, correct?

Isn't there a sensor that closes off the Fire Shutoff Valves if Green qty gets low? So that would also have to fail, correct? Do you have any records of the number of times these simultaneous failures have occurred?

You're splitting hairs trying to make your point (whatever it might be). Don't you have anything better to do than put your nose in the A330 Training Manual?

I answered your question. Obviously you are trying to come up with new and better ways to accomplish a character assassination.

Give it a rest. One day it might be you.

Driver <_<

 

[luvn737s]

You're splitting hairs trying to make your point (whatever it might be). Don't you have anything better to do than put your nose in the A330 Training Manual?

I answered your question. Obviously you are trying to come up with new and better ways to accomplish a character assassination.

Give it a rest. One day it might be you.

Driver <_<

No, actually I was trying to make the point that if you are going to roll the dice on your job, you should at least know what you are actually standing up for. Your answer was a little simplistic and made it appear more likely to occur that it really is.

If you have to have 1) simultaneous dual AC failure PLUS 2) Loss of all the green system fluid PLUS 3) the loss of the RAT fluid protection and/or the RAT just decides not to work PLUS 4) the APU does not start off it's own battery then you might need the batteries which may very well have all the capacity they are promising under those conditions.

I would think a dual engine failure would be far more likely than the above scenario occurring . There have been a few of them.

I am sure you cross paths with Capt. Wells. Can you ask her how the mechanics were able to start the APU and she couldn't? She should be given the opportunity to redeem her reputation, but she can't do it by remaining silent when valid questions are asked.

 

[A320 Driver]

​

No, actually I was trying to make the point that if you are going to roll the dice on your job, you should at least know what you are actually standing up for. Your answer was a little simplistic and made it appear more likely to occur that it really is.

If you have to have 1) simultaneous dual AC failure PLUS 2) Loss of all the green system fluid PLUS 3) the loss of the RAT fluid protection and/or the RAT just decides not to work PLUS 4) the APU does not start off it's own battery then you might need the batteries which may very well have all the capacity they are promising under those conditions.

Your question was simplistic. There was no need to get into the layers upon layers of redundancies in the hydraulics and electrical system of the A330 to answer it. Statistically, it becomes an almost impossible scenario. But, aren't most disasters just that?

I would think a dual engine failure would be far more likely than the above scenario occurring . There have been a few of them.

Quite a few if you count corporate aircraft...fuel, birds and water ingestion accounted for most of them.

I am sure you cross paths with Capt. Wells. Can you ask her how the mechanics were able to start the APU and she couldn't? She should be given the opportunity to redeem her reputation, but she can't do it by remaining silent when valid questions are asked.

Seriously??? You are an airline pilot and you've never had a failure or fault that fixed itself when the mechanics walked through the cockpit door and left no trace??? If that is the case, count yourself fortunate. I doubt if you could find ONE (other) major airline pilot that hasn't had this happen at least a dozen times during their career. Captain Wells has not been silent. She wrote a report and testified at the hearing. BOTH were completely consistent with each other. IMO, she has nothing left to prove to you, me or this company.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

Listen. As airline pilots we are called to a high standard. We answer the call every time we walk into a cockpit. Many times we are second guessed, but it is particularly troubling when that happens within ones own ranks and profession. The fact that we are debating this is NOT the product of a quest for truth. It is the product of a battle between two groups of pilots over an issue that has NOTHING to do with it. I would have hoped that some things would transcend that battle, but I guess I am wrong. It only goes to show you the level of mistrust and hatred that exists between our two groups. It gets played out during jumpseat requests, hotel van rides, in airport terminals and here on these boards. It is unfortunate to say the least.

For me and many like me, it is NOT personal. The constant attack on Captain Wells certainly IS personal and it should not be so. Blame USAPA for politicizing it and blame the company for mishandling it, but don't blame her. She made a reasonable call and did not back down when faced with a daunting opposition. THAT is what we are supposed to do...what we are supposed to be.

I'll ask you again. Can we not give this a rest?

Driver...

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No, actually I was trying to make the point that if you are going to roll the dice on your job, you should at least know what you are actually standing up for. Your answer was a little simplistic and made it appear more likely to occur that it really is.

If you have to have 1) simultaneous dual AC failure PLUS 2) Loss of all the green system fluid PLUS 3) the loss of the RAT fluid protection and/or the RAT just decides not to work PLUS 4) the APU does not start off it's own battery then you might need the batteries which may very well have all the capacity they are promising under those conditions.

I would think a dual engine failure would be far more likely than the above scenario occurring . There have been a few of them.

I am sure you cross paths with Capt. Wells. Can you ask her how the mechanics were able to start the APU and she couldn't? She should be given the opportunity to redeem her reputation, but she can't do it by remaining silent when valid questions are asked.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/25/331419/airbus-faces-demands-for-a320-series-electrical-systems-improvement-following-easyjet.html http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/11/05/349387/bmi-a321-strayed-off-course-as-pilots-battled-electrical.html http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2010-11-12/news/27579620_1_european-aircraft-manufacturer-airbus-rolls-royce-trent-a380s Your hatred for USAPA is really showing, If you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?

The light from the headlights would speed away from you at...wait for it...the speed of light, illuminating your path as always. You can thank Al for explaining that.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

I'll ask you again. Can we not give this a rest?

It is impossible to separate Capt. Wells actions from USAPA's fabricated Safety Campaign which undermines one of the sacred foundations of the piloting profession - the integrity of the safety issue.

If you want to give all this and more a rest, you need to accept that the east handed Mike Cleary the microphone with which he is embarrassing the entire pilot group and then remove him from office, thus separating yourselves from both the man and the message.

Failing your responsibility to do this, you are giving your approval for more, and you will not get the rest you ask for.

 

[A320 Driver]

It is impossible to separate Capt. Wells actions from USAPA's fabricated Safety Campaign which undermines one of the sacred foundations of the piloting profession - the integrity of the safety issue.

If you want to give all this and more a rest, you need to accept that the east handed Mike Cleary the microphone with which he is embarrassing the entire pilot group and then remove him from office, thus separating yourselves from both the man and the message.

Failing your responsibility to do this, you are giving your approval for more, and you will not get the rest you ask for.

I'll take that as a "NO".

There was an effort to remove Cleary and the West pilots sat on the sidelines. Talk about failing in a resposibility!!! Several West pilots posted that he was doing them a favor and playing right into their hands.

You CAN'T have it both ways.

Driver <_<

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

There was an effort to remove Cleary and the West pilots sat on the sidelines.

I wonder if an effort to remove him was more of a reminder of his duties and responsibilities and less of an attempt to actually "remove" him. I mean, it is usually much more complex than the simple "Cliff Notes" you generally pass out.

 

[cleardirect]

I'll take that as a "NO".

There was an effort to remove Cleary and the West pilots sat on the sidelines. Talk about failing in a resposibility!!! Several West pilots posted that he was doing them a favor and playing right into their hands.

You CAN'T have it both ways.

Driver <_<

What have we been told from the beginning? The east is the majority and the east does not need the west for anything. How did the east effort go to remove Cleary? Finally figuring out that without the west you guys are not going to get anywhere.

 

[A320 Driver]

What have we been told from the beginning? The east is the majority and the east does not need the west for anything. How did the east effort go to remove Cleary? Finally figuring out that without the west you guys are not going to get anywhere.

You still let an important opportunity go by making a point.