UAL Corporation Reports Fourth-Quarter and Full-Year Financial Results

[BillLumbergh]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030131/nyf034_1.html
United Airlines Parent Posts Record Loss
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030131/airlines_ua...al_earns_6.html

 

[UnitedChicago]

After drawing down $700 million from a special loan facility called debtor-in-possession financing, United ended the fourth quarter with $1.9 billion cash on hand, including $580 million in cash restricted for certain expenses.

``The positive surprise was they had more cash than I thought they would,'' said Richard Bittenbender, senior credit officer at Moody's rating agency

 

[DLFlyer31]

Wow...UAL's 4th qtr 02 BELF actually went up 5.9 pts (compared to 4th qtr 01) to 98.1!!!

As a comparison, DL's 4th qtr BELF dropped 11.0 pts to 79.6....still too high but improving. Even AA's BELF dropped 1.6 pts to 87.7.

 

[Segue]

Its amazing that WN's load factor is in the 60's yet they can comfortably turn a profit.....

UA's formula:

industry leading wages =>industry leading costs =>industry leading losses.

Does not take an MBA to figure that one out!

 

[767jetz]

[blockquote]
----------------

UA's formula:

industry leading wages =>industry leading costs =>industry leading losses.

Does not take an MBA to figure that one out!
----------------
[/blockquote]

It doesn't take an MBA or a rocket scientist to get their facts straight either.

Here is a reprint from AA's message board, but it certainly applies to your logic.

"12 year scale.

777 Capt DL ($292), AA ($228), UA ($205), CO ($204)

757 Capt DL ($245), AA ($195), NW ($192),CO ($178), UA ($174)

A-320/737 800 Capt, DL ($234), AA ($185), NW ($185), CO ($178-same as 757), UA ($165)

First Officer
B-777, DL ($199), NW ($160-747), AA ($156), UA ($140), CO ($139)

B-757, DL ($167), NW ($135), AA ($133), CO ($122), UA ($118)

A-320/737-800, DL ($160), NW ($130), AA ($126), CO ($122), UA ($113)"



Now tell me again about Industry Leading Wages...

And by the way, I don't have WN's pay rates, but I'm venturing a guess that they get paid significantly more than a UA 737 driver.

 

[Flufdriver]

So how long can DAL compete with those scales, or are they still drinking the "Delta Kool-Aid"........

 

[UnitedChicago]

Thanks jetz! Finally some actual data!

 

[GEO]

is it "two entrail" or "two in trail"?

 

[GEO]

WNs rates

12 year capt: approximently $152.57/hr
12 year f/o: approximently $100.66/hr

I say approximently because these are conversions from a "trip" rate. Naturally WN does it different than everyone else.

 

[Segue]

OK, I guess it just simply hourly rates - the airline with the lowest hourly rates has the lowest labor cost? Then UA is a "low cost carrier"

 

[pk45cu]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/31/2003 2:54:21 PM 767jetz wrote:

[blockquote]

----------------


UA's formula:


industry leading wages =>industry leading costs =>industry leading losses.


Does not take an MBA to figure that one out!

----------------

[/blockquote]


It doesn't take an MBA or a rocket scientist to get their facts straight either.


Here is a reprint from AA's message board, but it certainly applies to your logic.


"12 year scale.


777 Capt DL ($292), AA ($228), UA ($205), CO ($204)


757 Capt DL ($245), AA ($195), NW ($192),CO ($178), UA ($174)


A-320/737 800 Capt, DL ($234), AA ($185), NW ($185), CO ($178-same as 757), UA ($165)


First Officer

B-777, DL ($199), NW ($160-747), AA ($156), UA ($140), CO ($139)


B-757, DL ($167), NW ($135), AA ($133), CO ($122), UA ($118)


A-320/737-800, DL ($160), NW ($130), AA ($126), CO ($122), UA ($113)"




Now tell me again about Industry Leading Wages...


And by the way, I don't have WN's pay rates, but I'm venturing a guess that they get paid significantly more than a UA 737 driver.
----------------
[/blockquote]

The numbers you quote as UA's rates are *after* the 29% pay-cut, which didn't kick in until 1Q03.

More crucial than wage rates are work rules, which result in UA's monthly block hours per pilot to be the lowest in the industry at 36 hrs. For comparison, AA is at 39, NW 40, DL 45, CO 49, US 50, and WN 62.

Higher wages are OK as long as ridiculous work rules don't reduce productivity and necessitate hiring of unneeded pilots.

 

[767jetz]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/31/2003 11:46:11 PM pk45cu wrote:

More crucial than wage rates are work rules, which result in UA's monthly block hours per pilot to be the lowest in the industry at 36 hrs. For comparison, AA is at 39, NW 40, DL 45, CO 49, US 50, and WN 62.

Higher wages are OK as long as ridiculous work rules don't reduce productivity and necessitate hiring of unneeded pilots.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Sorry, but your logic is flawed due to incomplete information. UA's monthly block hours has tumbled due to the huge number of training events that have occured since 9/11. I don't have the exact #, but for example, every 747 captain that retires creates something like 12-14 seat movements. With the parking of aircraft and the number of bumps occurring, the training department simply can't keep up. Pilots are licensed on a particular airplane and seat. You can't just move from one to the next. So your numbers are misleading. You can not blame it on "ridiculous work rules."

Also look at the trend in your numbers. AA and NW have many fleets and slightly less furloughs relative to their size. So their averages are slightly better. CO basically has a widebody/narrowbody pay scale, so they have less seat movements. US is a mostly narrowbody airline. Their average usage will suffer if and when they start parking big airplanes. Obviously WN has only one fleet so their training is minimal.

The devil is in the details. Saying it's all about ridiculous work rules is rather simplistic.

 

[N421LV]

[blockquote]
----------------
UA's formula:

industry leading wages =>industry leading costs =>industry leading losses.

Does not take an MBA to figure that one out!
----------------
[/blockquote]

Then how do you explain America West? They have been consistently among the lowest paid employees, and yet they still lose buckets of money.

In truth, UA's formula is much simpler:

industry leading management incompetence =>industry leading losses

Even a pilot could figure that one out.

 

[Segue]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/3/2003 10:07:09 AM N421LV wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
UA's formula:

industry leading wages =>industry leading costs =>industry leading losses.

Does not take an MBA to figure that one out!
----------------
[/blockquote]

Then how do you explain America West? They have been consistently among the lowest paid employees, and yet they still lose buckets of money.

In truth, UA's formula is much simpler:

industry leading management incompetence =>industry leading losses

Even a pilot could figure that one out.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Do you deny that costs have anything to do with UA's problems?

If so, what would your plan be to make United successful?

 

[N421LV]

[blockquote]
----------------

Do you deny that costs have anything to do with UA's problems?

----------------
[/blockquote]

Of course costs have something to do with UA's problems....namely that they've WAY exceeded revenues for WAY too long. I merely take exception to your overly-simplistic statement that leading wages automatically result in leading losses. (BTW, I'm still waiting to hear why the converse does not seem to hold at America West). Here's another example: Delta. They are currently paying the industy's leading wages (with no talk of concessions on the horizon), yet they continue to turn in among the best financial performance of any of the network carriers.


[blockquote]
----------------

If so, what would your plan be to make United successful?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Honestly, I'm sad to say that I believe United is beyond help at this point. Due in large measure to a myriad of bad decisions made by their aforementioned industry leading incompetent management.