Twu Wages The Best?

[Steve Connell]

By the way you still have not addressed how allowing a TWA guy who came over from a bankrupt company to displace an AA guy is fair?

Well Bob, I wasn't wanting to make it personal, but you mention the words pimps and whores, not I, so personal it is. And why does coming from a BK airline have anything to do with dovetailing seniority. Fact is big boy, or shoud I say biggest boy, we were still an airline when AA bought us, I do not recall going without a paycheck or losing a days wages while in BK. So ya see our workforce was and still is an asset your COMPANY purchased. Fair? You need to put your hamburger down a minute and reflect on what's fair. A mechanic with 30 yrs seniority is furloughed while a mechanic with 3 yrs is not, fair Bob? Your line mentallity is bleeding through. We didn't "come over" as you stated, we were purchased, we did not fill out an app and become employed as a new hire, we were bought and you, the membership of the TWU, sold our seniority out, so present your fat non-union attitude to someone who'll listen.

And Bobby Gless, I ask him for my seniority every time I see him. I treat him no different than you.

I dont remember claiming to be a great leader, are you obviously grasping for points to argue.
Must have been another Bob Owens that broke his arm patting himself on the back reference his election results and how he has total love given to him from his local, shame they wouldn't pay for your groceries, now that would be reverence huh Bob.

 

[Bob Owens]

By the way you still have not addressed how allowing a TWA guy who came over from a bankrupt company to displace an AA guy is fair?

Well Bob, I wasn't wanting to make it personal, but you mention the words pimps and whores, not I, so personal it is. And why does coming from a BK airline have anything to do with dovetailing seniority. Fact is big boy, or shoud I say biggest boy, we were still an airline when AA bought us, I do not recall going without a paycheck or losing a days wages while in BK. So ya see our workforce was and still is an asset your COMPANY purchased. Fair? You need to put your hamburger down a minute and reflect on what's fair. A mechanic with 30 yrs seniority is furloughed while a mechanic with 3 yrs is not, fair Bob? Your line mentallity is bleeding through. We didn't "come over" as you stated, we were purchased, we did not fill out an app and become employed as a new hire, we were bought and you, the membership of the TWU, sold our seniority out, so present your fat non-union attitude to someone who'll listen.

And Bobby Gless, I ask him for my seniority every time I see him. I treat him no different than you.

I dont remember claiming to be a great leader, are you obviously grasping for points to argue.
Must have been another Bob Owens that broke his arm patting himself on the back reference his election results and how he has total love given to him from his local, shame they wouldn't pay for your groceries, now that would be reverence huh Bob.

The fact is that the guys at AA did not want AA to buy TWA.

We had a successorship clause, you guys gave yours up in order to get bought out.

Your union, the IAM, bent over backwards to get rid of you guys. They did not want to risk getting stuck holding the bag for $750,000,000. The IAM could have filed for representation, they chose not to, it's a shame they would have probably won, at least from the mechanics.

You guys could have nixed the whole deal by refusing to waive your contract. If you had kept it you would have had more of a case as far as dovetailing.

How about a mechanic who put in 25 years at EAL or Pan Am, then another 10 at AA being laid off to make room for a TWA guy with 11 years? Thats what we were looking at here Steve.

How about a guy that had twenty years at TWA who saw the writing on the wall and went to AA three years ago getting bumped out by a TWA guy with four years at TWA? Another one from here Steve.

No thirty year TWA guy had to hit the street. They could have bumped Junior guys in STL or MCI. With thirty years they would have 7 years occupational at JFK or LAX. I'm not saying that the whole thing was handled right, the company was wrong to keep hiring guys off the street while TWA guys were out on the street. But the fact is that there are loads of different scenarios that are very common now that were not twenty or thirty years ago. Its a lot harder to just say that this way or that way is the fair way. Fairness is determined by how it affects you. The fact is, you guys made out better than the Pan Am or the EAL guys and it certainly was not because you fought harder than them. In other words it was not earned.

The fact is that you chose to remain with a company that went bankrupt twice and was shrinking over a prolonged period of time. For years they had been selling off routes, didnt AA buy their London routes? In other words TWA was a dying company. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. Why should someone who went to AA, whether from EAL,Pan Am or TWA prior to the purchase lose his job because they bought you?

We all make choices, somethimes we are lucky, sometimes not. Its not as if I have no compassion for the thirty year, 60 year old guy from TWA but how do we tell the 60 year old guy from EAL here at AA who only has 10 years that he should step aside to make room for the guy who kept taking concessions long enough to see his company get bought out. Concessions that put downward pressure on the rest of our contracts. That he has to make room to reward those who gave concessions instead of fighting.


Ok now tell me again why you do not want to see an election between AMFA and the TWU? Hey you could always try and get your IAM back. Wouldnt either of them be better than the TWU?

As for patting myself on the back, if thats the way you see it fine. I saw it as evidence defending me against charges that the members wanted me out.

 

[Steve Connell]

Bob, regardless of how many COMPANIES a mechanic has been employed by should not matter in seniority dovetailing in a purchase or merger. Had the shoe been on the other foot we would have dovetailed AA, or found out why not. There lies the difference Bob, we are unionists, that is why you were asked to leave MCI, we are survivors, not followers of a union that sold us out. And when I state union, remember Bob, I mean the floor, not Jim Little, but who he reps. Anyone of any limited knowledge can determine or surmise what the IAM did for TWA. Bottom line I guess Bob is that even with the IAM we held a better contract than we now do, and before you blow a cork, we also held one better than NWA has.

You call us whores, do you have hidden wants and desires that need discussion here?

We all make choices, somethimes we are lucky, sometimes not.
So what's with the "your 60K is worth 30K in NY", your choice Bob. BTW Bob, I walked picket for EAL , did you?

Ok now tell me again why you do not want to see an election between AMFA and the TWU? Hey you could always try and get your IAM back. Wouldnt either of them be better than the TWU?
Bob, are you pulling out the stops here in this rendition? The only way I would promote another union, other than TWU, is if, and only if, AMFA would get in at AA. Then Bob, you would see a true union movement to regain AFL-CIO reps.

 

[Superside]

[/b]Bob, are you pulling out the stops here in this rendition? The only way I would promote another union, other than TWU, is if, and only if, AMFA would get in at AA. Then Bob, you would see a true union movement to regain AFL-CIO reps.

OK, Steve tell us; At which Airlines, currently represented by AMFA, are card drives being pushed to remove AMFA?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, regardless of how many COMPANIES a mechanic has been employed by should not matter in seniority dovetailing in a purchase or merger. Had the shoe been on the other foot we would have dovetailed AA, or found out why not. There lies the difference Bob, we are unionists, that is why you were asked to leave MCI, we are survivors, not followers of a union that sold us out. And when I state union, remember Bob, I mean the floor, not Jim Little, but who he reps. Anyone of any limited knowledge can determine or surmise what the IAM did for TWA. Bottom line I guess Bob is that even with the IAM we held a better contract than we now do, and before you blow a cork, we also held one better than NWA has.

You call us whores, do you have hidden wants and desires that need discussion here?

We all make choices, somethimes we are lucky, sometimes not.
So what's with the "your 60K is worth 30K in NY", your choice Bob. BTW Bob, I walked picket for EAL , did you?

Ok now tell me again why you do not want to see an election between AMFA and the TWU? Hey you could always try and get your IAM back. Wouldnt either of them be better than the TWU?
Bob, are you pulling out the stops here in this rendition? The only way I would promote another union, other than TWU, is if, and only if, AMFA would get in at AA. Then Bob, you would see a true union movement to regain AFL-CIO reps.

So in other words you are advocating that workers and unions make the concessionary path, in the hopes of a buyout or purchase, more advantageous than fighting for a fair wage. That we should never take the risk of standing up to the company and withholding our labor, and hope that when all is said and done that an airline that pays more buys us out and we get to keep our seniority and get the raise that they negotiated.

Were the EAL workers, your IAM brothers given any consideration, other than waiving the initiation fee, when they went to TWA?

Why should we give the companies more power over our futures by making the route that you took, ie giving concessions more appealing than the route EAL workers took-ie fighting concessions?

Why should we allow you guys to displace the EAL guys? What makes you more worthy? Why should you be given more consideration than them?

OK, so you walked the line with them, now you want to walk them out the door here to make room for you.

If your sense of fairness is so sound then how come you guys never put it in your contracts that all workers who have experience are given credit for their years of service? Why should it make a difference whether a company gets bought out or goes out of business, if the guy put in 30 years either way why should they be treated differently? Why should we base how we treat each other on the decisions of the employer? What do you think union members are, dogs that react loyaly to our masters whims?

Your claim to as what you would have done means nothing, it will never be put to the test. As for your claim as a unionist that was put to the test, and you failed by voting to give away everything for the sake of being promised a job. Any true unionist would chose to fight concessions of such a magnatude under any circumstances.

Survivors? Please, better to stand on your feet than live on your knees. You might find that on your feet you are less vulnerable.

Granted you had better health benefits with the IAM. However if you feel that you are better off making $400 a week less to get those benefits then obviously you are living very comfortably down there.

Jim Little does not rep the floor, he reps the International. Check his "oath", it does not mention the members. It's one of the charges that the International brought against me. The board used one of my posts where I stated that the members elected me and I represent them, not the International, as justification to "ban me for life" from the union.

Your right the IAM did a lot for TWA, such as giving them the lowest wages in the industry.

Your E-bd asked us to leave because they were afraid of the truth. Why were they so afraid of two guys? They could have debated us in front of their members. Their members on their own home turf. I would have no objections to you guys coming here and talking to our guys. If we are all in this together, and we are, why discourage communiction? Maybe thats one of the things we need? All the rank and file members, and a few of the stewards we met were all decent, friendly people who were apparently discouraged with their E-bd. It was only your E-bd that acted like a bunch of scared children when we showed up.

When I made my "choice" this industry paid well. People that lived in MCI or Tul lived like kings. Their wage was based on what was reasonable in NY or CA. However with deregulation, PATCO and the conquest of "business unionism" over Industrial and craft unionism the unions lost their nerve and willingness to fight. The unions simply wanted contracts in place. They did not care about the members any more, just their dues. The decision by the IAM to cut you guys loose and not even bother to try and represent all of us was a business decision.

While most real unionist recognize that the RLA hurts our bargaining position the unions love it. It guarantees their dues base. It supports stability, even if their performance is lousy. When this concessionary deal came out who did the International focus on? Tulsa and MCI. They knew that even with the concessions you guys would still be living well. But you guys seem to never consider the fact that the money that pays your wages is not made in Tulsa or MCI. Its made out of DFW, ORD, MIA,LAX, NYC, BOS and many other stations. Thats where the money is, thats where it comes from. Its how your wages are supplied and in order to do that the company needs mechanics to keep them going between overhauls. All of these areas are expensive places to live. Without us here, you would not be there.

What you guys have to realize is that we on the line have no objections to you guys living like kings. We only object to you guys using your numbers to force us to live on wages that are unacceptable here because you are afriad to fight for more. We want to keep overhaul in house. We do not want to see it farmed out to places like TIMCO or overseas. But, we want a fair wage for what we do where we do it. The line as a block voted against SRPs on OSMs, overhaul voted it in. Our local introduced a more defined and broader reaching scope clause at the 2001 negotiations, overhaul was the lead in blocking it. Despite the lies put out by Little the line never said at negotiations to farm out overhaul, but rather to layoff as needed, however the work is still ours.

We went down to MCI to try and get you guys to see where we are coming from. Those we met were receptive, except the E-bd, they did not want to hear anything. And they did not want to let the members hear anything either. I can understand your position. You live better than most of your neighbors. Nice home, money in the bank, nobody is overworked in this industry, if you lost this gig, you likely would not be able to replace it. We do not expect your lifestyle, we accept the fact that you will live with more material comforts than us. We can and do accept that. What we cant accept is you guys cutting our pay down to levels that are unacceptable here. Levels that make us qualified to apply for low income housing.

What you guys fail to realize is that you have brought wages so low here that there is no advantage for us, under these conditions to be in a union. There is certainly no advatange under the TWU to being in the same union as overhaul if they are going to force our wages below acceptable levels. The real threat is that your inconsiderate selfishness would make it easy for the company to break this union. Especially if Fleet Service went AGW. Now the company would have a situation where the TWU only had maintenance. Over 90% of the line guys want out of the TWU. Overhaul wants the TWU, but they have made it clear they they will accept any concession as long as they are promised a job. However overhaul is not out there where the money is being generated and as everyone in the industry knows you get more bang for the maintenance buck by doing your own line maintenance. Ive never seen an airline that had overhaul but not line maintenance but I've seen plenty that have line maint but no overhaul. UPS is one example and they pay their line guys over $40/hr.

What would you guys do if come 2005 the company decided to split off overhaul into a seperate company and pay you "competative wages" for overhaul (ie TIMCO) and then pay the line guys "competative" wages for the line (ie SWA and ups)? Vote no right? And I suppose if it came down to a strike you would expect us to support you after you blocked us from getting AMFA. After you prevented us from even talking to your members. After voting in unacceptable wages for here and demanding that even though you found them acceptable and we did not that we had to accept them? Remember with Fleet service in the AGW the company would still get their planes loaded. Your only saving grace would be if the line guys suported you. If you went on strike, and we did not, the company could still run as if nothing was wrong.

We can battle back and forth. those who benifit the most are the company and the TWU. The company gets cheap wages and the union grows as AAs lower labor costs allow it to take away market share from higher cost,(ie higher paid) rivals. The fact is that the line is fustrated because overhaul accepts concessions. This fustration divides us and is promoted by the TWU by their inaction at doing or attempting to do anything to lessen the financial burden for those of us in high cost areas.

Unfortunately with the attitude promoted by the TWU and your local leaders, of "I got mine" we are not left with any other options. We have to fight. The concessions the TWU advocated and put in place are unacceptable. We have people who are quitting, and most of us are trying to look for a way out. People such as yourself are the enemies of all who want a fair and decent wages for all, not just those in low cost areas. We are not asking you guys to throw away your jobs, we are asking you to join with us and to try and form a new movement where all of us mechanics will concentrate on the issues that affect us most. To fight FAR 145, to fight FAR 66, to fight to make an A&P a mandatory requirement to work on in service aircraft. We want a union that will make the profession that we chose what we expected it to be, a career, not just a job.

We want to form a union where we fight for a better life and not just grant the company everything they want. Our conditions under the TWU are what you would expect from a non-union company. As Thomas Paine said " our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer". We do so by giving the union three hours of out net earnings each month to simply tell us to give back to the company. We dont need a union for that.

You were a loyal IAM member, now you consider yourself a loyal TWU member yet you say that if we get AMFA that you would not support it.

In both prior cases you chose to support the union that was yours as a result of who your employer was.

Did you chose the job because of the employer or the union?

This situation is most likely the same for all your union brothers. They chose the company they work for not the union that represents them. The union came with the company. Your loyalty to the IAM was contingient upon your employer.

Now you say that should the majority of your brothers choose AMFA that out of hand you would not suport it.

How much sense does that make?

I agree that in contests between the company and the membership we must support whatever union is in place. That goes without saying, but in contests between two unions that want to represent us things are different. There should be no blind fealty to the incumbant union, it should have to prove itself, especially if living standards are falling with that union. Giving blind loyalty to a union that appears to be acting in the interests of the company by undercutting all other unionized workers in the industry is not good unionism, its stupidity.

Giving blind loyalty to the union that was imposed upon the members by default and pledging to be against a union that is brought in by democratic choice reveals your true loyalty is in fact to the company and not to unionism or democracy at all.

 

[Steve Connell]

Dang Bob, could you not post such long ramblings, I had to order out pizza just to get through all that.

So what I'm hearing here is that with AMFA, the remaining two mechanics at the airline will make great $$$.

We made less $$$ at TWA but had better work rules and contract, your TWU contract at AA eats up the better $$$ to the point of making less when all is said and done.

And why wouldn't the E-Board here want to send you packing? Because they didn't know of and weren't aware of the great Bob Owens? They saw a big fatboy from the north endanger their workplace, had they known it was the great Bob Owens I'm sure they would have treated you with the respect you deserve, maybe even broke the bank and bought you dinner.

Were the EAL workers, your IAM brothers given any consideration, other than waiving the initiation fee, when they went to TWA?

Did they lose one day of seniority when they came to TWA? If so, that's news to me.

 

[Bob Owens]

Dang Bob, could you not post such long ramblings, I had to order out pizza just to get through all that.

So what I'm hearing here is that with AMFA, the remaining two mechanics at the airline will make great $$$.

We made less $$$ at TWA but had better work rules and contract, your TWU contract at AA eats up the better $$$ to the point of making less when all is said and done.

And why wouldn't the E-Board here want to send you packing? Because they didn't know of and weren't aware of the great Bob Owens? They saw a big fatboy from the north endanger their workplace, had they known it was the great Bob Owens I'm sure they would have treated you with the respect you deserve, maybe even broke the bank and bought you dinner.

Were the EAL workers, your IAM brothers given any consideration, other than waiving the initiation fee, when they went to TWA?

Did they lose one day of seniority when they came to TWA? If so, that's news to me.

Come on now exaggerating a little arent you? The fact is the TWU has given away more mechanics jobs than anyone. Surely you know that from comparing your IAM contract to ours.

Less with the $35/hr we were making before you guys got ballotts or the $30 we are making now? Well you cant complain about the TWU contract that we are now under because you guys voted for it. If we eliminated the TWA vote wouldnt the contract have been rejected?



Fatboy? is that a derrogatory name you are calling me? Seeing that you feel that snitching to the company is OK maybe I will file charges against you. It looks like you have been posting for over two hours today. Do you work day shift? Are you off? If not then you are attacking my physical charecteristics on company time. Rule 32 pal, even if meant in jest. In fact what you are doing here is no different than if you phoned me from the companys phone and harrassed me. Now if today was your day off or you were on vacation that might, might, be a different story. What do you think? Should I pursue it?

Why not hear what we had to say? What were they afraid of? Actually the IAM bought me dinner in Nashville with your dues. Please accept my belated thanks.

You know rightly that the EAL guys were put on the bottom of the list. Despite paying dues to the IAM, some of them for decades you guys gave them nothing.

 

[Steve Connell]

Pursue what you want, earn a burger, I could care less. Just promise not to type 10 pages telling me how you're saving us all...and Bob...TWA did not purchase EAL as AA did TWA, or were you in on some secret dealings I am not aware of?

 

[Bob Owens]

Pursue what you want, earn a burger, I could care less. Just promise not to type 10 pages telling me how you're saving us all...and Bob...TWA did not purchase EAL as AA did TWA, or were you in on some secret dealings I am not aware of?

Why should whether or not the company bought another company make any difference as to how we treat our brothers?

Remember seniority is a union issue, not a company issue, why would you want to allow the companys actions to affect seniority?

The fact is EAL guys were dues paying members to your IAM, they became unemployed making the good fight instead of just rolling over. Those guys should have been treated as veterans. Instead you put them to the bottom, right?

 

[Steve Connell]

Bob, if you are attempting to promote amfa's stance, or should I say Delle's, that we should have the ability to take our seniority with us as we jump from airline to airline then you have no fight from me. But if you think that other unions nationwide give a person, say from EAL, his seniority while applying at an airline, say TWA, then you already realize that is a lame argument. Apples and oranges with just a touch of smoke.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, if you are attempting to promote amfa's stance, or should I say Delle's, that we should have the ability to take our seniority with us as we jump from airline to airline then you have no fight from me. But if you think that other unions nationwide give a person, say from EAL, his seniority while applying at an airline, say TWA, then you already realize that is a lame argument. Apples and oranges with just a touch of smoke.

Well what should unions take into account, the number of years as a union member or the number of years as an employee of the company?

What deserves more recognition from the Union, company time or time as a union member?

Why should Union members allow companies to have such control over union members lives? Why should we allow the company to use the threat of bankruptcy in such a powerful way? The way we do things encourages givebacks in order to prolong a mismanaged companies life at the expense of lower living standards across the industry. It puts us in a race to the bottom.

Why should unions endorse a structure or policy that encourages more loyalty and dependancy on the whims of corporate management?

If we recognized union or liscened time then the companies most powerful weapon would lose a lot of its thrust. We would have the power of unionization as well as free agency. Of course this would only be possible if we were all in one union. But then again thats the whole point. How does being split up between several different unions that represent airline workers enhance our bargaining power? IT DOESNT!! It dillutes and weakens us.

So GO AMFA. Its the only real option for change, whatever WE decide, not Sonny Hall or Jim Little.

 

[Superside]

If you guys in MCI missed this, or did not read the whole post By Bob Owens, It's a "must read".

 

[Birdman]

Steve C., left you a post on Air-mechanic in case you missed it. Oh, the tread topic so I don't get in trouble . Uh,uh, yeah. TWU International does have the best untouchable wages in the bus and airline industry. Local officers? Don't know. Yours, Birdman

 

[Steve Connell]

Birdman, I post here, if you have a message for me feel free to post on. And Super, all my past union affiliations have been with AFL-CIO memberships, not with one that would attempt ,in the past ,to split my floor during contract negotiations or show their head during times of economic duress. It's not that big of task to sit back and type negatives at the current bargaining agent, who will type about amfa in the future, you? It will surely be OK to bad mouth amfa on EVERY issue they fail at or seem to fail at. I personally would begin a 2 year drive to bring in an AFL-CIO union back to AA should amfa ever get the numbers they desire. You are correct in assuming I will never support amfa, I will be the one attempting to split the floor, won't be so much fun when the rabbit got the gun.

 

[Bob Owens]

Birdman, I post here, if you have a message for me feel free to post on. And Super, all my past union affiliations have been with AFL-CIO memberships, not with one that would attempt ,in the past ,to split my floor during contract negotiations or show their head during times of economic duress. It's not that big of task to sit back and type negatives at the current bargaining agent, who will type about amfa in the future, you? It will surely be OK to bad mouth amfa on EVERY issue they fail at or seem to fail at. I personally would begin a 2 year drive to bring in an AFL-CIO union back to AA should amfa ever get the numbers they desire. You are correct in assuming I will never support amfa, I will be the one attempting to split the floor, won't be so much fun when the rabbit got the gun.

Why not start a drive to have AMFA join the AFL-CIO?


What is wrong with the concept of having all the mechanics in one union?

I tried bringing forward the idea of having all the AFL-CIO unions that represent airline workers into merging their ATDs. I even discussed it with Sito Pantoja and Ed LaClair, your IAM reps at the integration hearing, they said that the IAM tried it years ago but the other unions were not willing.

The International said that since a union like that did not exist that advocating for it is dual unionism. Even though Sonny Hall said it was a good idea. So forget about any real changes with the TWU.

The fact is that change is coming to the airline labor movement. The change is twenty years overdue. We can no longer afford to be sideline interests of unions like the TWU, IAM and IBT. Everywhere you look these unchanagable, unaccountable, undemocratic, ineffective institutions are being replaced by unions that are focused, accountable and democratic. The NWA flight attendants, the SWA mechanics, UAL mechanics, possibly the AA dispatchers, and now the baggage handlers, are making moves to new unions that offer what the old guard will not. The baggage handlers are forming the AGW. The AGW is completely new, baggage handlers never had an alternative to the old guard unions. As soon as they get one airline they will be unstoppable. Fleet service does not have a Tulsa or MCI. Most of them live in high cost areas, because thats where the passengers are. They dont have the burden of having the majority of their classification being on the same pay rate as them but living in a very low cost area. It will be interesting. They may get out of the TWU before us!

If larger unions like the IAM and IBT are being voted out then what could the smaller but just as diverse as far as members go, TWU have to offer?
They offer us all the disadvantages of of representing too many different types of workers like a large industrial union along with the disadvantage of limited resources of a very small union. They only offer disadvantages and none of the advantage. The worst of both worlds. In the cases with the IAM and IBT members chose to go with tiny unions instead of staying with massive unions that had millions of members. The TWU only has 100,000 members, and they are spread out all over the place in all sorts of different industries. There is no way they can effectively focus on any one work group let alone one industry. Even the SEIU, the largest union in the company recognizes that "one size does not fit all" when it comes to unions. But the TWU does not care, they will take anybodys money. They have a whole list of time proven excuses for deferring the blame, just keep the money coming in.

When we get AMFA, I doubt that you will be any more effective at attacking AMFA than you were at defending the TWU.

By the way are you posting on the internet while at work?