TWA mgmt - last good CEO?

[kirkpatrick]

Are you saying that TWA ran 747-300s?

The 747-300 was the first 747 to have the extended upper deck, and retained the three-man crew (FE position). The -400 added the winglets and enough gadgets to do away with the FE and go to a two-man crew.

TWA never operated the 747-300. I think the confusion arises from our internal method of numbering aircraft. The first 747-100's got five digit airplane numbers (as did all widebodies) 17101-17119. The 747-SP's were designated 17201, 17202 and 17203 (AA bought two of these). The 747-200's were numbered 17301, etc.

These numbers didn't necessarily correspond exactly with FAA registration numbers or Boeing designations, but were for internal use only, just as AA does.

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=99

MK

 

[flyhigh]

...actually AA never bought the SP's from TWA...they were leased which is why when they were done needing them (MD-11 came on board fro DFW-NRT routes) they were returned to TWA where they sat at the MCI overhaul base for quite some time before being dimantled.

As for the bankruptcy idea, while it was AA's idea to use that specific section of the code, TWA was definitely heading that way. Not only had the cash position sunk below the limit they had for filing, but the company had a $100 million note due. There was some possibility of recapitalizing it, however, the terms were going to be pretty stiff thus adding a more fuel to the fire that was eating TWA's cash. To believe the company was heading for prosperity is just not realistic. It was a great company to work for, I learned a lt there personally, but I also knew then and know today that it was not going to last.

It's the reason I give Bill Compton credit. He truly did want only a deal that was going to protect the employees. Did he find one? I believe that in his heart he feels he did.

My vote still goes to Jack Frye. One thing worth looking up however, might be the list of presidents of the comapany. While Icahn was chairman & CEO, I'm not sure he was as day to day as a CEO typically is...

 

[eolesen]

they were returned to TWA where they sat at the MCI
overhaul base for quite some time before being dimantled.

Wrong. Both were sold and resumed flying. One is still in service, and the other was scrapped after a hard landing caused structural damage beyond economic repair.

To believe the company was heading for prosperity is just not realistic. It was a great company to work for, I learned a lt there personally, but I also knew then and know today that it was not going to last.

Yep. I felt the same way about People Express. Great co-workers and work environment, but the writing was on the wall long before Lorenzo bought them. What's ironic is that many ex-PE folks still are with CO, but that's what you get with an entirely non-union workforce being integrated into a largely non-union workforce.

One thing worth looking up however, might be the list of presidents of the comapany. While Icahn was chairman & CEO, I'm not sure he was as day to day as a CEO typically is...

The problem with presidents is that when you have a chairman like Hughes, Icahn, or Lorenzo, the president often ends up being a figurehead day-to-day manager without a whole lot of influence in how the carrier is run.

Joe Leonard, Tom Plaskett and Stephen Wolf all were fairly decent CEO's (regardless of what you think about Wolf's tenure at US), yet people forget that they served as president at one time for either EA or CO, mainly because Lorenzo was such a micro-manager and grabbed most of the media attention.

While Icahn may not have been as much of a day-to-day CEO, he certainly didn't give anyone a lot of leeway in being able to make decisions.

 

[TWAnr]

In later years they flew JFK-TLV with 747-300s and encountered no range problem. I have a picture of 17306, a 747-300 on the ramp in TLV from many years ago. In about 1997 I attended a seminar in Nazareth pass riding both ways on a 747-300.

Bill,

After the 747-100s and 747-200s were retired around 1997, flights 884 and 885 were operated by 767-300s until the route was abruptly discontinued in 2001. That is when the refueling stop at Shannon came to an end.

TWA never operated the 747-300s.

 

[flyhigh]

...you're right about the SP's...it was different a/c I was thinking of.

As for the President vs. CEO issue. Icahn, Lorenzo, et. al. kept most of the major strategy decisions (which was the ultimate reason for failure), however, the day-to-day decisions by a president might have been good and may have made them a better CEO than their boss. Icahn was well known for saying "let me ask my airline guys" when negotiating. It was his way of saying I know you value this, and I know it has value, but I don't know why. The story of his negotiations with American (Crandall directly) on ORD slots & gates were relayed to my by a friend who was involved in the discussions. At one point he told Crandall the he needed to speak with his "airline guys". His airline guys told him to accept no less than $15M. When the deal was done, they asked if he at least got the $15M. He said no. As they started to ask what he had done and why he answered that he got $40M. Unfortunately that went to Icahn Industries or whatever he calls his pocket instead of re-investing in the airline.

 

[MCI transplant]

...you're right about the SP's...it was different a/c I was thinking of.

As for the President vs. CEO issue. Icahn, Lorenzo, et. al. kept most of the major strategy decisions (which was the ultimate reason for failure), however, the day-to-day decisions by a president might have been good and may have made them a better CEO than their boss. Icahn was well known for saying "let me ask my airline guys" when negotiating. It was his way of saying I know you value this, and I know it has value, but I don't know why. The story of his negotiations with American (Crandall directly) on ORD slots & gates were relayed to my by a friend who was involved in the discussions. At one point he told Crandall the he needed to speak with his "airline guys". His airline guys told him to accept no less than $15M. When the deal was done, they asked if he at least got the $15M. He said no. As they started to ask what he had done and why he answered that he got $40M. Unfortunately that went to Icahn Industries or whatever he calls his pocket instead of re-investing in the airline.

<_< ------ I really didn't hear that one, but don't surprise me! And they wonder why we couldn't make any money!

 

[scuba]

I have a great suggestion for all the TWA'ers who think they can run an airline (for that matter all employees who think they could do better). Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and start a new airline. Call it The Wonderful Adventure! For that matter, I think all people who think they can do better should join in and see where they can go. Chances are you will succeed, or you will fail. Eitherway it would be an adventure like no other. I know STL has gate space, MCI has buildings for sale all around the airport and there are thousands of former airline employees out of the industry.

Think about it, you can make right the past. You could add flights to DAL and DFW. You could set the routes. If either NW or DL go C7 you have unlimited growth. But now is the time! No time like the present.

Just to say it, if I could find the backing, I would do it, join in, be a part of it, just to say I did something in my life that was a risk.

 

[jj]

I have a great suggestion for all the TWA'ers who think they can run an airline (for that matter all employees who think they could do better). Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and start a new airline. Call it The Wonderful Adventure! For that matter, I think all people who think they can do better should join in and see where they can go. Chances are you will succeed, or you will fail. Eitherway it would be an adventure like no other. I know STL has gate space, MCI has buildings for sale all around the airport and there are thousands of former airline employees out of the industry.

Think about it, you can make right the past. You could add flights to DAL and DFW. You could set the routes. If either NW or DL go C7 you have unlimited growth. But now is the time! No time like the present.

Just to say it, if I could find the backing, I would do it, join in, be a part of it, just to say I did something in my life that was a risk.

Now scuba that is a great idea-now if we could only get AA to sell the TWA name it would work.AA knows this and will never sell the name.Poeple of St. louis would love to leave AA and run to TWA 2.Bet on that.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

<Years ago TWA owned "Hilton International Hotels", "Spartain Foods", "Century 21" Realestate, "Hardys.........that were paid for with Airline money, Spon TWA the Airline off! Legally Stealing those companies out from under us! Smart retained the post of both CEO of the Airline, and "Trans World Corp.!" :rant:

I remember those companies being spun off, but didn't know it was a "Smart move". Guess that rules him out of being the winner of this category!

 

[kirkpatrick]

I remember those companies being spun off, but didn't know it was a "Smart move".

Those companies weren't spun off; TWA was.

MK

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- Not that it makes any difference now, but it was the other way around. Trans World Corp. spun the Airline off! The companies weren't spun off!

...you're right about the SP's...it was different a/c I was thinking of.

As for the President vs. CEO issue. Icahn, Lorenzo, et. al. kept most of the major strategy decisions (which was the ultimate reason for failure), however, the day-to-day decisions by a president might have been good and may have made them a better CEO than their boss. Icahn was well known for saying "let me ask my airline guys" when negotiating. It was his way of saying I know you value this, and I know it has value, but I don't know why. The story of his negotiations with American (Crandall directly) on ORD slots & gates were relayed to my by a friend who was involved in the discussions. At one point he told Crandall the he needed to speak with his "airline guys". His airline guys told him to accept no less than $15M. When the deal was done, they asked if he at least got the $15M. He said no. As they started to ask what he had done and why he answered that he got $40M. Unfortunately that went to Icahn Industries or whatever he calls his pocket instead of re-investing in the airline.

<_< -----You know, it's a little ironic! aa ended up spending good money for some of TWA's best assets,(ORD gates, LHR routes,) all of which went into Uncle Carl's pocket, that they could of had with the buy-out! But then again if he hadn't sold them, maybe there wouldn't have been a "buyout"!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- And then there was C.E.Meyer Jr.! The man that through his greed and stupidity, delivered TWA into the hands of Carl Icahn! He had accumulated a $300mil. war chest to use against the Pilot's Union if they decided to struck, during on going contract talks! But he decided to brag about it at a meeting of Bankers in L.A. and how undervalued TWA stock was at that time! Well guess who was sitting in the audience? Uncle Carl himself! Must have been quit a speech, because after Icahn heard $300mil. he got up, went to the lobby and made a few calls! Told his people to start buying TWA stock! At the same time Meyer brought in Lorenzo to scare the hell out of the Unions! I do believe it was only Ichan's initial intent to get in quick, and get out with as much cash as he could get along the way! But it was the Unions who talked him into staying longer! They knew that they didn't want to deal with Lorenzo, and Uncle Carl was the lesser of two evils in their minds! The rest is history!