Transcon Service from BOS & JFK

[AirplaneFan]

Of course, there are two ways to read this statement. Are you saying that service hasn't improved over the past few years?
Also don't you see it as an ominous sign that AA has full planes and continues to lose money?
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On 8/11/2003 7:35:53 PM MiAAmi wrote:

Thats not the reality at AA. I have yet to see one flight attendant treat pax any differently than they did before our concessions. Now what we might express on Bulletin boards and between each other might be completely different. But rest assure we value the customer. Flights are full and the frustrations that come along with that can't be any different then they might be at America West.

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[mga707]

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On 8/11/2003 11:15:50 AM funguy2 wrote:

Examples:

BWI-LAX/SJC WN
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WN also does BWI-SAN (since July). IIRC, BWI-OAK is in the pipeline for later this year.

I must correct one bit of revisionist history here: The press release announcing these new flights touted them as HP's first transcons. Untrue. At one point during the '90s they tried SNA-JFK with 757s. Don't have the exact dates but I could look it up in the timetable archives (or HP early retiree could help me out

 

[Cart Pusher]

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On 8/11/2003 3:22:55 PM MiAAmi wrote:

More than likley AA will match the $299 fare one way or another. Still AW is no match for AA on Trans-Cons. They may be able to snatch a few pax from AA, but AA kept 3 class service on the Trans-Cons for a reason. Something that AW can't match. AA can always match the $299 fare. The Business traveler is still here, they may not be paying what they used to but they still want that upgrade to Business and First and AA has it.. AW does not. Still there is probably room for both carriers, just 2 different types of service. Just like JFK-SJU against Jetblue, AA's flights are still full.

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Your statement may very well be true. There probably is room enough for both of them on these routes, BUT - AA has thus far been able to continue to charge outrageous $$$ on the LAX-JFK route because there hasn't been any nonstop, low-fare competition. Well, it just arrived - there goes one of AA's bread and butter domestic routes. Those same low fare people that have been going to alternative airports in the L.A. area no longer have to do that, they can now go right to LAX, AA's backyard. AND - while AA may not try to get the low fare customers on their airplanes, they WILL have to lower their fares to match the competition. Why? Because their previous high fare paying customers will not settle for paying a premium just to fly on AA. They will however take full advantage of AA when they begin to offer the same basement fares that HP offers, and they will expect their FREE upgrades as they have in the past. This means that AA will start to lose some serious money on this route. That will be a huge thorn in AA's side, one that they will be able to do nothing about since HP's cost are substantially lower than AA's.

 

[coolflyingfool]

Where is AWA getting the 8 A319s to run these routes? I did notice that AWA is cutting their LAS-SNA from 6 to 5 r/t by the end of the year. I know that at one time last year AWA was operating 8 r/t on this route.

 

[MiAAmi]

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On 8/12/2003 1:53:38 AM Cart Pusher wrote:

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On 8/11/2003 3:22:55 PM MiAAmi wrote:

More than likley AA will match the $299 fare one way or another. Still AW is no match for AA on Trans-Cons. They may be able to snatch a few pax from AA, but AA kept 3 class service on the Trans-Cons for a reason. Something that AW can't match. AA can always match the $299 fare. The Business traveler is still here, they may not be paying what they used to but they still want that upgrade to Business and First and AA has it.. AW does not. Still there is probably room for both carriers, just 2 different types of service. Just like JFK-SJU against Jetblue, AA's flights are still full.

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Your statement may very well be true. There probably is room enough for both of them on these routes, BUT - AA has thus far been able to continue to charge outrageous $$$ on the LAX-JFK route because there hasn't been any nonstop, low-fare competition. Well, it just arrived - there goes one of AA's bread and butter domestic routes. Those same low fare people that have been going to alternative airports in the L.A. area no longer have to do that, they can now go right to LAX, AA's backyard. AND - while AA may not try to get the low fare customers on their airplanes, they WILL have to lower their fares to match the competition. Why? Because their previous high fare paying customers will not settle for paying a premium just to fly on AA. They will however take full advantage of AA when they begin to offer the same basement fares that HP offers, and they will expect their FREE upgrades as they have in the past. This means that AA will start to lose some serious money on this route. That will be a huge thorn in AA's side, one that they will be able to do nothing about since HP's cost are substantially lower than AA's.

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I think you are forgetting that not all the seats on AW will be at $299. Even if they were thats 2 319's at approx 230 seats in the market at $299. thats equal to about 1 1/2 767's. AA has 9 767's in the market. They could offer limit seats on maybe 2 flights and still make money on the route. The press release states that the AW fare will start at $299. AA already flys JFK to the west coast at fares that top out at $299. There is a difference here.

 

[MiAAmi]

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On 8/11/2003 10:27:33 PM AirplaneFan wrote:


Also don't you see it as an ominous sign that AA has full planes and continues to lose money?
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If you check your facts AA had a positive cash flow in both MAY and JUNE. We are by no means out of the woods yet but things are much better than the 1st quarter.

 

[pk45cu]

Yes, what's 2 piddly A319s compared to an armada of 757s, 762s and 763s. At $250 avg fare OW, HP needs 75% load factors to break even since their costs are 35-50% less than AA's costs.

AA will match walk-up fares around the HP flight times, have full flights AND still lose money, like they do on their jetBlue routes. AA currently charges these walkup fares (one-way, before taxes) on the 4 routes:

BOSLAX $1,150, BOSSFO $1,126, JFKLAX $850, JFKSFO $850.

UA's fares are even more ridiculous.

BOSLAX $1,209, BOSSFO $1,185, JFKLAX $1,142, JFKSFO $1,142.

And please, don't give me the marketing crap about low AA fares from JFK to California. The $299 match of jetBlue's fares is on exactly 8 non-stop flights a day to 4 airports, with SFO and LAX notably absent from that list. If you want to fly from JFK to SJC via ORD, you have the privilege of paying nearly $1,000 each way.

 

[wwtraveler99]

Well I see what a bargin HP will be for that business traffic. Pulled up a random flight departing LAX Nov 3 and retun on Nov 7. The fare is only $1218.00 plus a few add on taxes of up to 23.00. Now if you are a leisure traveler you can go for $324.00 plus the same added taxes. Sounds to me as if HP is trying to match AA business fares and carry a few leisure travelers.

 

[Ch. 12]

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On 8/11/2003 3:53:05 PM MiAAmi wrote:

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On 8/11/2003 333 PM Ch. 12 wrote:



AA also has a very poor reputation for inflight customer service.

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Do you have any stats to back that up?

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Ask around. Just like political polls, the surveys that are used to produce "stats" in this area are subjective and can never measure something that is immeasurable. I have taken turns flying transcon between AA, HP, US, and WN and can easily say that AA rates the lowest with me as it does with most that I speak with. The problem is not the people, but the culture. AA has grown too large to maintain a "cozy" feeling among inflight personnel and through consistent complaints coming from inflight crew and lack of focus on true customer service, I can say that AA has a poor culture right now. With employees coming from all of the absorbed carriers (most recently TW), there is infighting and lack of respect among collegues.
HP at 20 years still has a young feeling among its employees. Their culture is different in that they are more centralized (especially with the disappearance of the CMH hub) and haven't been negatively affected by constant take-overs and anti-competitive allegations. Every time AA is involved in either (and it is often), that affects the morale...especially with the "absorbed" employees.
So....my unscientific statistics are based on common sense and ALOT of flying on both. I will take HP service over AA any day. And since HP has vastly improved their operational performance, there is little reason to fly on AA. Sure...those that require 2 aisles on all of their flights will still choose AA for these transcons, but the picky business traveller is now choosing to teleconference and few are taking to the air.

 

[AAmech]

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On 8/11/2003 749 PM HPearlyretiree wrote:

The question is: Would you rather fly on AA with pissed off flight attendants, understaffed gate agents, unhappy pilots, countless delays and pay a few hundred more for the "honor" of flying a once proud airline that really blows now, or fly on an HP 319?

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Sure HP, everyones just really pissed off and miserable at AA. I wonder why AA's passenger retention rate is like twice HP's?

 

[Ch. 12]

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On 8/12/2003 10:23:46 AM AAmech wrote:

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On 8/11/2003 333 PM Ch. 12 wrote:




AA also has a very poor reputation for inflight customer service. HP won't try to match that, I'm sure. HP has had a poor operational reputation in the past, but they have made marked improvements and have been recognized for that. AA still has service issues and apparently is not working to remedy them. I see HP winning on the customer service front.

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Where the heck do you people come up with this crap? AA has the highest customer retention rate of any airline yet "AA also has a VERY poor reputation for inflight customer service". Boy you guys have some wacky theories!

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It's called independent thought. I can see from outside the AA walls and have also seen from within them. Customer retention per your statement is measured how? If you mean that they have repeat customers, chalk that up to having the largest network in the world and if you want a n/s flight, chances are higher that you can get it on AA than on any other carrier. The law of averages says that the largest carrier will have the highest number of passengers, therefore the highest number of repeat passengers.
BUT...with HP flying head to head on the transcon...there is now an option.
I'm curious...am I the only one that consistently gets bad service on AA? Let's call this our unofficial measure. But...just as there are more AA pax in the world...there are also more AA posters on these boards (other than maybe US) so the results may still be skewed.

What do we say...where do you rate AA inflight CUSTOMER service? Anyone?

 

[AAmech]

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On 8/11/2003 3:06:17 PM Cart Pusher wrote:

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On 8/11/2003 11:29:25 AM MiAAmi wrote:

Your right - some don't. Most of the JFK-LAX traffic is business travel anyway. The $299.00 fares are gravey.

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Don't delude yourself MIAAMI - business travleres aren't going to pay $900 to fly on AA when they can fly on HP for $299. Their companies simply won't allow it. That gravy that you talk about is going to be your walk up coach fare very soon. If AA doesn't respond to it then they will lose travelers to America West, ATA and Jet Blue. It's thinking such as yours that's gotten the airlines into the position they're currently in. In case you haven't noticed, business travel as we used to know it has all but dried up. Business travelers care less now about whether they fly on a 767 or 319. If the fare is the same then they will start looking at other benefits but if the fares are slightly different then plane size, meal options and entertainment become moot points.


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You guys are a little behind the times. AA's highest walk up Y fare between JFK and LGB and Orange County airport is $299.00! Business Class is $599.00 walk up! Same price for JFK-SJC! These are narrow body 757 flights.

 

[AAmech]

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On 8/11/2003 333 PM Ch. 12 wrote:




AA also has a very poor reputation for inflight customer service. HP won't try to match that, I'm sure. HP has had a poor operational reputation in the past, but they have made marked improvements and have been recognized for that. AA still has service issues and apparently is not working to remedy them. I see HP winning on the customer service front.

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Where the heck do you people come up with this crap? AA has the highest customer retention rate of any airline yet "AA also has a VERY poor reputation for inflight customer service". Boy you guys have some wacky theories!

 

[AirplaneFan]

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On 8/12/2003 10:23:46 AM AAmech wrote:

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On 8/11/2003 333 PM Ch. 12 wrote:




AA also has a very poor reputation for inflight customer service. HP won't try to match that, I'm sure. HP has had a poor operational reputation in the past, but they have made marked improvements and have been recognized for that. AA still has service issues and apparently is not working to remedy them. I see HP winning on the customer service front.

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Where the heck do you people come up with this crap? AA has the highest customer retention rate of any airline yet "AA also has a VERY poor reputation for inflight customer service". Boy you guys have some wacky theories!
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I have never seen a "customer retention figure" and would not know what it is measuring. Can you enlighten us as to what all the airlines figure is and why that is a meaningful measure for the airlines.
For most people, if they are flying to ATL they fly Delta, going to DFW they fly AA so I don't know what a retention figure would show.

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[HPearlyretiree]

Mga, you are correct, SNA JFK flights were tried, and they were always full, but then again the JFK to PHX flights on the decrepit 747-200's were always full. Full does not equal profitable, as AA is showing to everyone!