The Fleecing of American Employees
- Thread starter RV4
- Start date
Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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On 6/10/2003 1
28 AM j7915 wrote:
Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.On 6/10/2003 1
28 AM j7915 wrote:Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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What contract does the AMFA have that is wage concessionary?
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
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On 6/10/2003 128 AM j7915 wrote:
Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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How about QUIT the reliance on Politicians and do something using Strength and Unity instead of just making those words a weak ass slogan on a T-Shirt?On 6/10/2003 1
28 AM j7915 wrote:Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
----------------
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On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
How about not giving our children our debt?
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
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On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
How about not giving our children our debt?
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
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Wild Onion
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Socialism is an economic philosophy. Facism is a political ideology. They can co-excist. Nazi Germany was both Facist and Socialist (to a point).
In order to set out Europe (i.e. France) as an example, you must acknowledge 10% unemployment, ridiculously high tax rates (up to 70%) and enormous national debts.
In order to set out Europe (i.e. France) as an example, you must acknowledge 10% unemployment, ridiculously high tax rates (up to 70%) and enormous national debts.
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- 1,555
----------------
On 6/10/2003 8
30 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
I agree
How about not giving our children our debt?
I agree
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
I agree
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
I agree
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
I agree
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
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On 6/10/2003 8
30 AM Bob Owens wrote:----------------
On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
I agree
How about not giving our children our debt?
I agree
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
I agree
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
I agree
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
I agree
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
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On 6/10/2003 9
40 AM Wild Onion wrote:
Socialism is an economic philosophy. Facism is a political ideology. They can co-excist. Nazi Germany was both Facist and Socialist (to a point).
Yes just like Capitalism and Facism or any other Totaltarianism. If you had said Spain I might agree but German Facism was Capitalistic. Mercedes and all those other German companies survived. A lot of the slaves they used did not.
In order to set out Europe (i.e. France) as an example, you must acknowledge 10% unemployment, ridiculously high tax rates (up to 70%) and enormous national debts.
Yes but in most other countries they measure unemployment more accurately. In most countries they count everyone of working age that does not have a job, here we only count those who are collecting unemployment. After a lenghty period of being unemployed the government takes the position that such people are no longer seeking to be employed so they are no longer called "unemployed". High taxes, they sure do, but they get more. People over there only have to worry about getting well not going broke. They get free college education and loads of other things. If you add in what we pay for Medical benifits, LTD, College loans etc our rates are likely to be just as high.
On 6/10/2003 9
40 AM Wild Onion wrote:Socialism is an economic philosophy. Facism is a political ideology. They can co-excist. Nazi Germany was both Facist and Socialist (to a point).
Yes just like Capitalism and Facism or any other Totaltarianism. If you had said Spain I might agree but German Facism was Capitalistic. Mercedes and all those other German companies survived. A lot of the slaves they used did not.
In order to set out Europe (i.e. France) as an example, you must acknowledge 10% unemployment, ridiculously high tax rates (up to 70%) and enormous national debts.
Yes but in most other countries they measure unemployment more accurately. In most countries they count everyone of working age that does not have a job, here we only count those who are collecting unemployment. After a lenghty period of being unemployed the government takes the position that such people are no longer seeking to be employed so they are no longer called "unemployed". High taxes, they sure do, but they get more. People over there only have to worry about getting well not going broke. They get free college education and loads of other things. If you add in what we pay for Medical benifits, LTD, College loans etc our rates are likely to be just as high.
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On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
In other words they have Freedoms that we do not! Our founding fathers liked the French but imagine how embarrased they would be to see how we have created our own aristocracy, one that denys others of rights that even the French have!
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thats like Nassau County in NY where most of the people are registered Republicans but the vote Democrat for President. The Republicans that they do elect to Federal positions are often more pro-labor than most Democrats ie Peter
King.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
I must disagree, the Republicans have done a lot. But I dont like what they have done, Part 145, PEBS, "No Stikes in the airline industry while I'm in office" loans tied to permanent concessions from labor, etc.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
But that is where you are mistaken, the AFL-CIO does not have the ultimate power. The unions dictate to the AFL-CIO, not the other way around. This is a common misconception and it makes a handy excuse for leaders like Jim Little who blame them for his failures, but it sounds good. If member unions disagree with the "official position of the AFL-CIO" they simply leave, like the Carpenters and the Teamsters have done several times. Maybe we would be in better shape if the AFL-CIO had such power, but then again you know what they say about power.
From discussions I've had with AFL-CIO representatives they have no problem with the idea of craft or specialized unions, why would they, they have loads of them. The largest union of all, the SEUI, which I believe is where Sweeny came from put out a paper called "United We Win" which softly criticizeed catch all unions that divy up workers for the sake of dues even though they know that they can not provide the specialization needed for optimal representation and effectiveness. Its on the 562 website if you have the interest or the time.
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On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
In other words they have Freedoms that we do not! Our founding fathers liked the French but imagine how embarrased they would be to see how we have created our own aristocracy, one that denys others of rights that even the French have!
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thats like Nassau County in NY where most of the people are registered Republicans but the vote Democrat for President. The Republicans that they do elect to Federal positions are often more pro-labor than most Democrats ie Peter
King.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
I must disagree, the Republicans have done a lot. But I dont like what they have done, Part 145, PEBS, "No Stikes in the airline industry while I'm in office" loans tied to permanent concessions from labor, etc.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
But that is where you are mistaken, the AFL-CIO does not have the ultimate power. The unions dictate to the AFL-CIO, not the other way around. This is a common misconception and it makes a handy excuse for leaders like Jim Little who blame them for his failures, but it sounds good. If member unions disagree with the "official position of the AFL-CIO" they simply leave, like the Carpenters and the Teamsters have done several times. Maybe we would be in better shape if the AFL-CIO had such power, but then again you know what they say about power.
From discussions I've had with AFL-CIO representatives they have no problem with the idea of craft or specialized unions, why would they, they have loads of them. The largest union of all, the SEUI, which I believe is where Sweeny came from put out a paper called "United We Win" which softly criticizeed catch all unions that divy up workers for the sake of dues even though they know that they can not provide the specialization needed for optimal representation and effectiveness. Its on the 562 website if you have the interest or the time.
----------------
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On 6/10/2003 927 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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On 6/10/2003 9
27 PM Bob Owens wrote:----------------
On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
In other words they have Freedoms that we do not! Our founding fathers liked the French but imagine how embarrased they would be to see how we have created our own aristocracy, one that denys others of rights that even the French have!
NO, we represented by the TWu have Article 33 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
ARTICLE 33 – NO STRIKE – NO LOCKOUT
(a) It is the intent of the parties to this Agreement that the procedures set forth in this Agreement will serve as a means of amicable settlement of all disputes that may arise between them, and, therefore:
(1) The Company will neither cause nor permit a lockout during the life of this Agreement; and
(2) Neither the Union nor the employees will engage in a strike, sitdown, walkout, stoppage, slowdown, or curtailment of work for any reason during the life of this Agreement.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thats like Nassau County in NY where most of the people are registered Republicans but the vote Democrat for President. The Republicans that they do elect to Federal positions are often more pro-labor than most Democrats ie Peter
King.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
I must disagree, the Republicans have done a lot. But I dont like what they have done, Part 145, PEBS, "No Stikes in the airline industry while I''m in office" loans tied to permanent concessions from labor, etc.
So the Republicans have:
Part 145, this is of course a disaster in the making and I feel treasonous.
PEBS, My how may wages increased....
No Strikes, Art. 33 of the TWU/AA CBA.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
But that is where you are mistaken, the AFL-CIO does not have the ultimate power. The unions dictate to the AFL-CIO, not the other way around. This is a common misconception and it makes a handy excuse for leaders like Jim Little who blame them for his failures, but it sounds good. If member unions disagree with the "official position of the AFL-CIO" they simply leave, like the Carpenters and the Teamsters have done several times. Maybe we would be in better shape if the AFL-CIO had such power, but then again you know what they say about power.
You sir are incorrect when it comes to the TWU in the airline industry at American Airlines.
And just how do the members of the TWU at AA leave the AFL-CIO?
Maybe if the AFL-CIO flexed the power it has, labor might just get a new look.
From discussions I''ve had with AFL-CIO representatives they have no problem with the idea of craft or specialized unions, why would they, they have loads of them. The largest union of all, the SEUI, which I believe is where Sweeny came from put out a paper called "United We Win" which softly criticizeed catch all unions that divy up workers for the sake of dues even though they know that they can not provide the specialization needed for optimal representation and effectiveness. Its on the 562 website if you have the interest or the time.
So when it comes right down to the issues it is about dues for the AFL-CIO. A collective representation would go a long way to shore up labor.
If the AFL-CIO cannot provide optimal representation and effectiveness, then why would you want to support them?
I will read the info on 562
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On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
In other words they have Freedoms that we do not! Our founding fathers liked the French but imagine how embarrased they would be to see how we have created our own aristocracy, one that denys others of rights that even the French have!
NO, we represented by the TWu have Article 33 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
ARTICLE 33 – NO STRIKE – NO LOCKOUT
(a) It is the intent of the parties to this Agreement that the procedures set forth in this Agreement will serve as a means of amicable settlement of all disputes that may arise between them, and, therefore:
(1) The Company will neither cause nor permit a lockout during the life of this Agreement; and
(2) Neither the Union nor the employees will engage in a strike, sitdown, walkout, stoppage, slowdown, or curtailment of work for any reason during the life of this Agreement.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thats like Nassau County in NY where most of the people are registered Republicans but the vote Democrat for President. The Republicans that they do elect to Federal positions are often more pro-labor than most Democrats ie Peter
King.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
I must disagree, the Republicans have done a lot. But I dont like what they have done, Part 145, PEBS, "No Stikes in the airline industry while I''m in office" loans tied to permanent concessions from labor, etc.
So the Republicans have:
Part 145, this is of course a disaster in the making and I feel treasonous.
PEBS, My how may wages increased....
No Strikes, Art. 33 of the TWU/AA CBA.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
But that is where you are mistaken, the AFL-CIO does not have the ultimate power. The unions dictate to the AFL-CIO, not the other way around. This is a common misconception and it makes a handy excuse for leaders like Jim Little who blame them for his failures, but it sounds good. If member unions disagree with the "official position of the AFL-CIO" they simply leave, like the Carpenters and the Teamsters have done several times. Maybe we would be in better shape if the AFL-CIO had such power, but then again you know what they say about power.
You sir are incorrect when it comes to the TWU in the airline industry at American Airlines.
And just how do the members of the TWU at AA leave the AFL-CIO?
Maybe if the AFL-CIO flexed the power it has, labor might just get a new look.
From discussions I''ve had with AFL-CIO representatives they have no problem with the idea of craft or specialized unions, why would they, they have loads of them. The largest union of all, the SEUI, which I believe is where Sweeny came from put out a paper called "United We Win" which softly criticizeed catch all unions that divy up workers for the sake of dues even though they know that they can not provide the specialization needed for optimal representation and effectiveness. Its on the 562 website if you have the interest or the time.
So when it comes right down to the issues it is about dues for the AFL-CIO. A collective representation would go a long way to shore up labor.
If the AFL-CIO cannot provide optimal representation and effectiveness, then why would you want to support them?
I will read the info on 562
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On 6/10/2003 5:28:17 AM RV4 wrote:
How about QUIT the reliance on Politicians and do something using Strength and Unity instead of just making those words a weak ass slogan on a T-Shirt?
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What do you propose? Walk out? Protest outsourcing by distributing fliers at the terminal? Demand a meeeting with the CEO? Call the FAA and demand a change to FAR 145? On 6/10/2003 5:28:17 AM RV4 wrote:
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On 6/10/2003 128 AM j7915 wrote:
Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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On 6/10/2003 1
28 AM j7915 wrote:Buck, I think that I will start to agree with you. We need to get the TWU to collect $25 dues per months, we are working under a concessionary contract, and AMFA says they only collect that much from members working under a concessionary contract.
The TWU is useless, and there is not reason for ANY union to EVER TALK FOR its members to politicians. If the members feel strongly enough about something they will and can do that on their own.
Seeing as I lost my shift differential I could use that extra money. The politicians are wise and will do what is best for us, and as they hear a cacophony of noises from the people calling them with suggestions, they will use their best judgement.
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How about QUIT the reliance on Politicians and do something using Strength and Unity instead of just making those words a weak ass slogan on a T-Shirt?
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Strength and unity only works in politics, in business you would have to boycott, do you want to drive customers away?
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On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
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On 6/10/2003 11:16:23 AM Buck wrote:
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On 6/10/2003 830 AM Bob Owens wrote:
You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
I agree
How about not giving our children our debt?
I agree
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
I agree
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
I agree
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
I agree
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
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On 6/10/2003 8
30 AM Bob Owens wrote:----------------
On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
On 6/10/2003 1:58:57 AM Buck wrote:
You will never convince me that you are nothing but a socialist who believes that it is better to have everyone employed, no matter the cost.
Well I would rather that he was a socialist than a fascist. I think your perception of what Socialism is, is flawed. In Europe, where there are Socialists they fight for shorter work weeks, higher hourly pay, more paid vacation (most Europeans average 6 weeks of vacation while the average American gets 2), free medical and free education (well,paid for with taxes). I know that Socialists might fight to bring a lower paid workers pay up to a higher workers pay but I have never heard of Socialists trying to lower everyones pay to give a company a competative advantage over other companies.
This is not Europe, the French strike when they want.
I will hold you to your statement, the TWU is useless. The purpose of the union talking to politicians should be for issues that effect our profession not your liberal left wing agenda.
Like FAR 145? unfortunately both parties have bought off on "globalization". Instead of just ensuring that the work is done here by certified mechanics they chose to take away your rights in the name of "security" while shipping work to places with little to no FAA oversight, background checks, drug tests,etc. Dont worry, if it does turn out that these overseas maint shops are employing al queda we will just send in our military to go and kill a few thousand civilians and teach them a lesson. Then they will hire the right people.The Liberals want to spend our money trying to save the world while the conservatives want to spend our money and our childrens money taking it over.
How about if we concentrate on adopting policies here at home that make it so that people can afford to stay home and raise their kids instead of being raised by corporate media moguls?
I agree
How about not giving our children our debt?
I agree
How about focusing on the problems within our borders and punish those disloyal corporations and politicains that facilitate the loss of US jobs.
I agree
How about puting an end to Companies that do their business here but claim to be incorporated somewhere else.
I agree
How about eliminating tax scams like Goodwill, that allow companies like AA to add $988 million of fictional losses to their books.
I agree
Is it not the policy of the TWU to have the members contact their congressmen? As for members of the TWU contacting politicians on their own, at least the member would do so on issues they believe in, not your version of what they should be.
In all fairness most people do not follow the political arena that closely and would be unaware that certain issues were coming up to a vote without the actions of organized lobby groups.
This is why I was speaking to J7915, it was meant more for the political enviroment of the TWU Local 514. Where registered Democrats vote Republican.
Thanks for pointing out that you lost your shift differential only, that must mean that you are an officer in the TWU. No 17.5% paycut like the topped out mechanic and no 36% paycut like your beloved OSM.
What have the Democrats done for the A&P mechanic in the last 20 years?
What have the Republicans done?
Lets see,
-make bailouts contingient upon labor making permanent concessions. In effect transferring the onus upon labor for the airlines difficulties instead of management or another failed example of Deregulation.
-More PEBs or the lack of one,in precident setting ways than the Democrats.
-Put through rulemaking "without public review or comment" that allows unelected beurocrats to take away your ability to work as an aircraft mechanic without giving specific charges or the right to be innocent until proven guilty.
-Revised FAR 145 to "liberalize" the use of Foreign Maintenance on US based aircraft.
I do not believe I asked about the Republicans, but they have not done much either.
Both parties are guilty of disloyalty to their constituants.
Thats a start but it sure beats the Democrats who have pretty much done nothing for the aircraft mechanic. Given the choice between what the Republicans have done for us and what the Democrats have not done, I think I like the Democrats better.
My beef is with the Democrat based philosophy of unionism based on a structure where the AFL-CIO has the ultimate power and does not use this for the good of the rank and file.
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To all: I realize that you all are proud of your formatting skills with html etc. However unless you are carrying on a private conversation in public, how about please reverting to the previous "quote" and reply format.
It is tedious to try to figure out the color code, of who said what and who is replying to whom.
If I am intruding into a private conversation, sorry. I just hope that people you want to convert to your point of view are just as confused and tune out.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
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How about QUIT the reliance on Politicians and do something using Strength and Unity instead of just making those words a weak ass slogan on a T-Shirt?
----------------
What do you propose? Walk out? Protest outsourcing by distributing fliers at the terminal? Demand a meeeting with the CEO? Call the FAA and demand a change to FAR 145? How about QUIT the reliance on Politicians and do something using Strength and Unity instead of just making those words a weak ass slogan on a T-Shirt?
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Strength and unity only works in politics, in business you would have to boycott, do you want to drive customers away?
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Cannot walk out thanks to Article 33 of the mechanic and related contract.
What would be wrong with Grass Roots Activism?
Ok when is the TWU going to become active and report to the members? What has the TWU accomplished using the political process? Climb up on your Democrat soapbox and after bashing the evil Republicans, tell me what 8 years of Clintonism acheived for labor.
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