The A330 Blues

[AOG-N-IT]

There seem to be a couple of schools of thought regarding the NWA A330 order. I recall seeing (on airwhiners.net, among the which livery do you think is prettiest posts) a repost of an internal memo from NWA regarding the analysis which had led to the decision to go for the A330-300 as the DC-10/747-200 replacement (basically, that the 777-200 was too much airplane for the transatlantic routes and that the 767 didn't offer enough cargo capacity). Then again, NWA already had a number of outstanding orders for the A330 (which had been deferred a couple of times) with Airbus, and and they likely would have faced a substantial cancellation fee if they had chosen to not take the aircraft. I imagine that "costs" included both the up-front acquisition cost as well as the loss of deposits and/or penalties for cancelling the A330 orders.

I wonder if, perhaps, the Airbus business model is somewhat akin to King Gillette's razor business. Give airlines an extremely attractive up-front cost on the airframe, and make up for it by guaranteeing a profit stream from the sale of expensive spare parts. I don't have direct knowledge of the business, but it sure would seem that way from AOG-N-IT's experience.

As for NWA continuing to buy Airbus narrowbodies...well, TCO would also include the added costs of operating a mixed fleet of NG737's and A319/A320's for essentially the same missions. It would be very tough to unload over 100 Airbus narrowbodies without taking a big writeoff, even if the direct operating cost of the NG737 is a bit lower. You dance with the one that brought you.

sfb,

You my friend have a clear grasp of what is at hand...the other issues are the smokey-room under the table perks that are offered....but with todays live for the moment CEO's...here is where we find ourselves.

 

[Echo12]

While I by no means doubt the integrity of this story and I agree that the details are most regretful, I think it is exaggerated to blast Airbus products. If they were so bad, perhaps someone could explain the following how Airbus has just become the #1 aircraft manufacturer leading Boeing in both orders and deliveries.

Furthermore, ff the quality really was sub-par and airlines were paying more money later, surely they would have realised it by now and not continued placing orders for that product.

Electradude:

I think some of the long time Airbi users may be rethinking their decision, as an example, Air Canada is very interested in various versions of the 717. They are not interested in the A318.

You are way off the mark. Quotes from the following Aviation Daily Article:

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/chan...s/splx12223.xml

? The buying isn't over yet, however, because the carrier's fleet plan calls for adding 105 new planes, leaving 15 more up for grabs. CEO Robert Milton told The DAILY Friday he is in talks with Airbus about possibly adding some Airbus A318s to the fleet.?

Milton stressed he is in no rush to order the 15 planes and is having only "intermittent" talks with Airbus. "It may result in nothing, or it may become an order," he said. In contrast, he said Air Canada definitely has ruled out the Boeing 717. While it is a "good sturdy airplane," the 717 is "generally larger than we are looking for." After running the projections and models, Milton said the push was for small planes and an aircraft of more than 100 seats was too large.


Echo12

 

[AOG-N-IT]

While I by no means doubt the integrity of this story and I agree that the details are most regretful, I think it is exaggerated to blast Airbus products. If they were so bad, perhaps someone could explain the following how Airbus has just become the #1 aircraft manufacturer leading Boeing in both orders and deliveries.

Furthermore, ff the quality really was sub-par and airlines were paying more money later, surely they would have realised it by now and not continued placing orders for that product.

Electradude:



You are way off the mark. Quotes from the following Aviation Daily Article:

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/chan...s/splx12223.xml

? The buying isn't over yet, however, because the carrier's fleet plan calls for adding 105 new planes, leaving 15 more up for grabs. CEO Robert Milton told The DAILY Friday he is in talks with Airbus about possibly adding some Airbus A318s to the fleet.?

Milton stressed he is in no rush to order the 15 planes and is having only "intermittent" talks with Airbus. "It may result in nothing, or it may become an order," he said. In contrast, he said Air Canada definitely has ruled out the Boeing 717. While it is a "good sturdy airplane," the 717 is "generally larger than we are looking for." After running the projections and models, Milton said the push was for small planes and an aircraft of more than 100 seats was too large.


Echo12

Echo,

Airbus purchases are based on one thing alone "Initial Purchase Prices".

Most CEO's and CFO's will never be around when it hits crunch time with these disposable airframes.

Note...UA and US had a common thread regarding the Airbus...and that was Wolf lining his pockets by making said purchases.

JetBlue was an upstart...and creative financing makes it work for them.

AWA is another company that WAS on shakey ground and Airbus made a cheap fit...and now they are so involved (as is U) that they can't turn back.

CO had thier trist with Airbus...and couldn't get away quick enough , DL had thier venture after obtaining Pan Am asssets and couldn't dump them quick enough.

The industry has made Airbus #1 for one reason only...and it's because of the hit and run profiteering of those whom run these businesses ...and in some cases run them into the ground.

 

[N628AU]

Lets put it this way. I have yet to hear a mechanic, pilot, or anyone intimately associatied with these airplanes say anything positive about these aircraft long term. They are not, and IMO, were not designed to have the life exepectancy of a Boeing, or especially a Douglas airframe. They are very lightweight construction, which provides for a low operating cost platform. I could see a DC8 flying the crew of the last A320 back from the desert very easily.

 

[jetmech01890]

these planes were throw away planes everyone knew it just look into the desert all the a 300 's parked if it isnt a boeing it isnt going

 

[USFlyer]

No one ever intended the Airbus birds to be around 25-30 years like the older Boeing planes. Plus, with advances in fuel efficiency, noise and the like, I'm not sure it makes sense to keep planes around that long. Also, the new Boeing planes (e.g., 7E7) rely heavily on composites just like the Airbus planes, so I wonder how well those will hold up over time as well.

 

[AOG-N-IT]

No one ever intended the Airbus birds to be around 25-30 years like the older Boeing planes. Plus, with advances in fuel efficiency, noise and the like, I'm not sure it makes sense to keep planes around that long. Also, the new Boeing planes (e.g., 7E7) rely heavily on composites just like the Airbus planes, so I wonder how well those will hold up over time as well.

Composites on the Airbus (Minus the suspect AA A300-300R in Jamaica Bay) are not the problem.

Airbus's biggest issue is poor corrosion prevention just for starters....this issue alone will reduce the airframes life by 50%.

Poor logistics support and constant demands on gadget changes just eat you alive.


I will be interested to see how the Boeing 7E7 "Dreamliner" pans out? I'm sure it will have a shift towards the few positive Airbus attributes..yet retain the solid aspects would have grown to expect and appreciate.

 

[electradude]

To reference Mr. Milton of Air Canada, If the 717 is too big....why is he looking at the A318? (same seating capacity...and a lot heavier structurally)

My suspicions are Boeing would not cut enough of a deal for the 717 and so AC went else where. I would be willing to bet AIRBUS is panicing to see all these carriers moving to the micro-jets, and offered AC a HE** of a deal on the 318 to keep them in the fold.

They (AC) would be fools to get tied up with that plane. It is the least efficient of all the 100+ seaters....by a wide margin.

 

[Flying Titan]

To reference Mr. Milton of Air Canada, If the 717 is too big....why is he looking at the A318? (same seating capacity...and a lot heavier structurally)

My suspicions are Boeing would not cut enough of a deal for the 717 and so AC went else where. I would be willing to bet AIRBUS is panicing to see all these carriers moving to the micro-jets, and offered AC a HE** of a deal on the 318 to keep them in the fold.

They (AC) would be fools to get tied up with that plane. It is the least efficient of all the 100+ seaters....by a wide margin.

I agree. From what I've seen, the 318 is way too heavy for the number of seats it carries. Personally, even with the issue of fleet commonality, I don't see why anyone would want to buy it. On paper, the 717 seems like a much better choice in the 100-110 seat range - plus, I suspect it's a better built aircraft. My question is how the 717 compares with the EMB-190/195. Does any have any info to share on how these two planes match up head-to-head? Purchase price, weight, range, operational cost estimates, etc....