RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
Yep-
That IAD remark had me scratching my head. ???
That IAD remark had me scratching my head. ???
STAR ALLIANCE
- Thread starter DCAflyer
- Start date
apofurlough
Member
- Aug 20, 2002
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Maybe we could reopen the BWI hub and have the monopoly on all 3 Washington airports, sounds good to me
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Personally, I don't see it happening, but ANY airline would be thrilled to switch out a CLE, CIN, or PIT hub (just a few examples) for one at IAD.
IAD has HUGE O&D potential for both the domestic and international markets.
BA doesn'y fly 2 777's and a 744 to/from there DAILY just to get rid of extra jet fuel you know.
IAD has HUGE O&D potential for both the domestic and international markets.
BA doesn'y fly 2 777's and a 744 to/from there DAILY just to get rid of extra jet fuel you know.
Cosmo
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 840
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[blockquote]
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On 2/10/2003 6:49:34 AM geo1004 wrote:
IAD has HUGE O&D potential for both the domestic and international markets.
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[/blockquote]
To expand on this, IAD was the 4th largest U.S.-Europe gateway (after JFK, ORD and EWR in that order) in terms of onboard passengers and departures for the year ended June 30, 2002. In contrast, looking at the current US hubs, PHL was #10, PIT was #18, and CLT was #20. This is indicative of the passenger-generating strength of IAD and the Washington area.
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On 2/10/2003 6:49:34 AM geo1004 wrote:
IAD has HUGE O&D potential for both the domestic and international markets.
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[/blockquote]
To expand on this, IAD was the 4th largest U.S.-Europe gateway (after JFK, ORD and EWR in that order) in terms of onboard passengers and departures for the year ended June 30, 2002. In contrast, looking at the current US hubs, PHL was #10, PIT was #18, and CLT was #20. This is indicative of the passenger-generating strength of IAD and the Washington area.
RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
US at DCA really mostly competes with ACA at IAD.
But, regarding the network, wouldn't IAD and PHL be duplicative? I thought this was a problem with the merger, but DOT seemed to be more worried about the BWI-IAD-DCA concentration. Now, with BWI all but dust, and the economy different, DOT might not have a problem with such a comination, but would it be wise?
Maybe, if the City of Philadelphia continues to give U grief, U will want to find a way out. But how to get out of PHL? Would seem like a lot of disruption only to end up with a competitor out of PHL anyway.
IAD as a O-D facility is worse than PHL.... but I guess it's better as a connecting facility than is PHL. Honestly, I haven't been to the UAL terminal at IAD... but I'm scheduled to fly to LHR on Thursday. As a DC resident, I'd rather fly from DCA (even on a Dash) to PHL and connect to Europe there, especially with the new terminal coming online at PHL.
IAD is a headache and a half to get to if you live here
But, regarding the network, wouldn't IAD and PHL be duplicative? I thought this was a problem with the merger, but DOT seemed to be more worried about the BWI-IAD-DCA concentration. Now, with BWI all but dust, and the economy different, DOT might not have a problem with such a comination, but would it be wise?
Maybe, if the City of Philadelphia continues to give U grief, U will want to find a way out. But how to get out of PHL? Would seem like a lot of disruption only to end up with a competitor out of PHL anyway.
IAD as a O-D facility is worse than PHL.... but I guess it's better as a connecting facility than is PHL. Honestly, I haven't been to the UAL terminal at IAD... but I'm scheduled to fly to LHR on Thursday. As a DC resident, I'd rather fly from DCA (even on a Dash) to PHL and connect to Europe there, especially with the new terminal coming online at PHL.
IAD is a headache and a half to get to if you live here
Light Years
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- Aug 27, 2002
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0
Two thoughts.
First, I'm not sure more US service into ORD and DEN is all that vital.
It's true that the codeshare requires a double connect to reach the western cities if you want to spend any of your time on US metal, but there's no reason you couldn't route through a single connection on UA metal (DCA-ORD-PDX or DCA-ORD-GEG in the examples you cited).
If anything, adding US service to hubs like ORD or DEN could dilute the alliance since (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the DOT prohibited codesharing on routes where US and UA compete non-stop like PHL-LAX.
Take LGA-ORD, for instance. If US was to throw five or so flights on that route, it would no longer be able to place its code on UA's near-hourly service between the two cities. The result would be US passengers staying on US metal for longer, but at the same time, LGA passengers would certainly have fewer US-coded flights to choose among and probably lose access to codeshare destinations though ORD.
The only cases in which adding DEN or ORD service makes sense would be in cities that have US service but not UA service. Problem is, many of those cities are too small to warrant service to the UA hub (like SRQ-DEN, for instance).
Second, as for Bronner's comments on US being interested in ORD and IAD if UA is forced to fragment, I'm pretty doubtful.
IAD would be a nice gateway for transatlantic and transcontinental service, but when you combine the preference for DCA and National’s lack of low-fare carriers (though AirTran will come in soon), it makes more sense to keep DCA as your core operation in the Washington area. Plus, the last thing that US needs is another hub smack between PHL and CLT with DCA about 25 miles away.
ORD is a hell of a market, but US can’t just take a handful of gates here and there. In order for US -- or anyone else, for that matter -- to successfully compete with AA, they’d have to make a major investment in gates, aircraft, staff and affiliates. I just don’t see US being able to make that kind of commitment and I don’t think a partial commitment to Chicago would be profitable.
My guess? If US is eyeing anything UA owns, it would probably be some of the western ops (read: DEN). I think Bronner's comments about IAD and ORD are either red herrings to throw off the competition or an unprepared knee-jerk response to a reporter’s question.
First, I'm not sure more US service into ORD and DEN is all that vital.
It's true that the codeshare requires a double connect to reach the western cities if you want to spend any of your time on US metal, but there's no reason you couldn't route through a single connection on UA metal (DCA-ORD-PDX or DCA-ORD-GEG in the examples you cited).
If anything, adding US service to hubs like ORD or DEN could dilute the alliance since (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the DOT prohibited codesharing on routes where US and UA compete non-stop like PHL-LAX.
Take LGA-ORD, for instance. If US was to throw five or so flights on that route, it would no longer be able to place its code on UA's near-hourly service between the two cities. The result would be US passengers staying on US metal for longer, but at the same time, LGA passengers would certainly have fewer US-coded flights to choose among and probably lose access to codeshare destinations though ORD.
The only cases in which adding DEN or ORD service makes sense would be in cities that have US service but not UA service. Problem is, many of those cities are too small to warrant service to the UA hub (like SRQ-DEN, for instance).
Second, as for Bronner's comments on US being interested in ORD and IAD if UA is forced to fragment, I'm pretty doubtful.
IAD would be a nice gateway for transatlantic and transcontinental service, but when you combine the preference for DCA and National’s lack of low-fare carriers (though AirTran will come in soon), it makes more sense to keep DCA as your core operation in the Washington area. Plus, the last thing that US needs is another hub smack between PHL and CLT with DCA about 25 miles away.
ORD is a hell of a market, but US can’t just take a handful of gates here and there. In order for US -- or anyone else, for that matter -- to successfully compete with AA, they’d have to make a major investment in gates, aircraft, staff and affiliates. I just don’t see US being able to make that kind of commitment and I don’t think a partial commitment to Chicago would be profitable.
My guess? If US is eyeing anything UA owns, it would probably be some of the western ops (read: DEN). I think Bronner's comments about IAD and ORD are either red herrings to throw off the competition or an unprepared knee-jerk response to a reporter’s question.
Light Years
Veteran
- Aug 27, 2002
- 2,878
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77777777777
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
To all of the "U eats the competition" posters here, a question:
How you going to pay for all this expansion?
Oh yeah, the pilot pension fund....
How you going to pay for all this expansion?
Oh yeah, the pilot pension fund....
[blockquote]
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On 2/10/2003 5
42 PM PineyBob wrote:
DFW,
He did? Geez I missed that, when did he say that?
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[/blockquote]
Here ya go Bob
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/bus...ess/5126228.htm
Bronner speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving a war. He said that if United were to sell assets, he would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways." Neidl suggested that United's Washington Dulles hub and some gates at Chicago O'Hare might have value for US Airways.
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On 2/10/2003 5
42 PM PineyBob wrote: DFW,
He did? Geez I missed that, when did he say that?
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[/blockquote]
Here ya go Bob
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/bus...ess/5126228.htm
Bronner speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving a war. He said that if United were to sell assets, he would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways." Neidl suggested that United's Washington Dulles hub and some gates at Chicago O'Hare might have value for US Airways.
RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
[blockquote]
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On 2/10/2003 5
24 PM tug_slug wrote:
Bronner speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving a war. He said that if United were to sell assets, he would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways." Neidl suggested that United's Washington Dulles hub and some gates at Chicago O'Hare might have value for US Airways.
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[/blockquote]
Er-
Isn't this where we came in?
By the way, I think that DOT's code share approval does prohibit code sharing between the hubs, but I don't think that includes LGA or BOS. But I think that there were additional restrictions out of DC area airports. IIRC, UA and US can't code share to a destination from either IAD or DCA if they already serve that destination from one of the airports. So, US can't put its code on UA's flight from IAD to JAX, because US serves JAX from DCA, but they can put the US code on UA's flights to DEN, because US doesn't (can't) serve DEN from DCA. (I wonder if I got that right??)
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On 2/10/2003 5
24 PM tug_slug wrote: Bronner speculated that United has a 50-50 chance of surviving a war. He said that if United were to sell assets, he would consider backing the purchase of some "if it would be beneficial to US Airways." Neidl suggested that United's Washington Dulles hub and some gates at Chicago O'Hare might have value for US Airways.
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[/blockquote]
Er-
Isn't this where we came in?
By the way, I think that DOT's code share approval does prohibit code sharing between the hubs, but I don't think that includes LGA or BOS. But I think that there were additional restrictions out of DC area airports. IIRC, UA and US can't code share to a destination from either IAD or DCA if they already serve that destination from one of the airports. So, US can't put its code on UA's flight from IAD to JAX, because US serves JAX from DCA, but they can put the US code on UA's flights to DEN, because US doesn't (can't) serve DEN from DCA. (I wonder if I got that right??)
whatkindoffreshhell
Veteran
[blockquote]
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On 2/10/2003 4:56:12 PM dfw79 wrote:
Bronner already said he would finance any asset purchase of UAL. Next question.
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[/blockquote]
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Yep, and I'm still waiting for that pretty pony a sugardaddy promised me if I played nice!
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On 2/10/2003 4:56:12 PM dfw79 wrote:
Bronner already said he would finance any asset purchase of UAL. Next question.
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[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
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Yep, and I'm still waiting for that pretty pony a sugardaddy promised me if I played nice!
RowUnderDCA --
Under their agreement with the Justice Department, UA and US cannot codeshare on any route on which both airlines offer nonstop service, regardless of whether it's a hub or not.
Where I was wrong, though, was that the codeshare restrictions are only on those routes' local traffic. So a US flight between PHL and ORD can't carry the UA code if a passenger just wants to go from Philadelphia to Chicago, but that same US flight can carry the UA code if the passenger wants to go PHL-SLC via ORD.
Looks like you're absolutely right regarding the DCA/IAD restrictions (except for BOS and LGA).
From the DOT Web site:
Under the agreement with the Justice Department, United and US Airways will not code-share on local traffic on routes where both offer nonstop service, including their hub-to-hub routes (Philadelphia-Los Angeles, for example). They will not code-share on local traffic on nonstop services operated to the same endpoint from either Dulles International Airport or Reagan Washington National Airport, except for Washington, D.C.-LaGuardia/Boston flights.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/US-UAL.htm
Under their agreement with the Justice Department, UA and US cannot codeshare on any route on which both airlines offer nonstop service, regardless of whether it's a hub or not.
Where I was wrong, though, was that the codeshare restrictions are only on those routes' local traffic. So a US flight between PHL and ORD can't carry the UA code if a passenger just wants to go from Philadelphia to Chicago, but that same US flight can carry the UA code if the passenger wants to go PHL-SLC via ORD.
Looks like you're absolutely right regarding the DCA/IAD restrictions (except for BOS and LGA).
From the DOT Web site:
Under the agreement with the Justice Department, United and US Airways will not code-share on local traffic on routes where both offer nonstop service, including their hub-to-hub routes (Philadelphia-Los Angeles, for example). They will not code-share on local traffic on nonstop services operated to the same endpoint from either Dulles International Airport or Reagan Washington National Airport, except for Washington, D.C.-LaGuardia/Boston flights.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/US-UAL.htm
