Southwest suspends 737 MAX flights until August!

[swamt]

Good Lord I hope so jim. We need something by the end of this year so we can adjust accordingly on what to do next. The rumors are flying on M&A's possibilities with ALK and JB at the top of the list. More media groups jumping on board the rumor mill wagon. Having the AirTran merger experience behind us now I am sure SWA has learned from that and would do an even better job next time around. JB would be the easiest to get thru approvals and such. Not sure if I would be too happy with the Airbus fleet coming in though. Here's more on the merger rumors:

Is Acquisition a Solution to Southwest’s MAX Problems?

At least JB is doing very well right now as AirTran was too...

JetBlue Q3 Earnings Soar on High Revenues, Low Costs

 

[KCFlyer]

I kind of think that en eventual outcome is that the FAA will require a type rating on the Max, which would negate it's benefit to Southwest.

 

[jimntx]

That's fine jim. NP when someone just casually mentions some news that happened during the night or day doesn't bother me any. I never go to water cooler. Too much other BS in there.

Can I have an AMEN from the choir! I tried to keep up with the water cooler, but found it left me in a state of indifference approaching the supernatural.

 

[swamt]

I kind of think that en eventual outcome is that the FAA will require a type rating on the Max, which would negate it's benefit to Southwest.

And maybe this is why SWA is entertaining a different model and manufacturer and/or M&A's.
Southwest CEO voices concerns about timeline for return of Boeing 737 Max

Southwest Will Look at Buying Jets Other Than Boeing 737s After 48-Year Run

 

[KCFlyer]

And maybe this is why SWA is entertaining a different model and manufacturer and/or M&A's.
Southwest CEO voices concerns about timeline for return of Boeing 737 Max

Southwest Will Look at Buying Jets Other Than Boeing 737s After 48-Year Run

I only say that because if Boeing were to take a 737, stretch it, raise the landing gear and position the engines back to a more "traditional" location (basically, reintroduce the 757) it would be a new type and pilots would have to become type rated to fly it, no matter how similar it might be to a 737. The fact that the Max has this software system to "simulate" the flying characteristics of a 737 is, in my admittedly non professional opinion, more of a difference than flying plane with a taller landing gear.

And the selling point of the Max was that it would require minimal training. If a new type rating is thrown into the mix, if a flight operating a 700 has a mechanical and is replaced with a Max, then SWA will have to either have all their pilots type rated to fly it, or they may have to find a replacement crew as well.

 

[jimntx]

Though Boeing products (and the good ole MD-80) have always been my favorite to work as a flight attendant, the AB321 is an airplane that WN must consider. It carries almost 200 passengers in the standard seating configuration, and passengers seemed to like it. Remove the First Class cabin, replace it with 6 across and you probably are over 200 without much effort. And, as I understand it, because it was a new item when AB introduced it, it is way ahead of the 737 technologically. I just hated the AB First Class galley (still do, and I've been retired for 2 years at the end of the month). Serving meals is not a WN thing so galley configuration shouldn't be an issue. The XLR would be an ideal plane for the Hawaii routes; though I don't know how well it fits the inter-island service. I have a sneaky suspicion that the MAX will not be long for this world (relatively speaking). There has been so much negative publicity, and though those of us who have been in the business will probably accept whatever decision the FAA makes about the aircraft, I'm not convinced that passengers will be anxious to be "on the first flight out of Love Field/whatever airport on the recently certified MAX". Tell me what you think.

 

[jimntx]

Maybe if they just rebranded the 737MAX to the 737NAM (Not A Max)? The passengers won't really know, and if we all keep our mouths shut...

Just FYI...

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-board-consider-airbus/ Swamt, since WN is good at keeping their employees informed, I'm assuming this is not news to you.

 

[swamt]

Maybe if they just rebranded the 737MAX to the 737NAM (not a max)? The passengers won't really know, and if we all keep our mouths shut...

Just FYI...

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-board-consider-airbus/ Swamt, since WN is good at keeping their employees informed, I'm assuming this is not news to you.

We have read some internal memos about it on the 24th. It really is not new news at all. Southwest has always entertained other manufacturers every time we are introduced to a new 737 model. Only now it will get in dept and more detailed as of the current issues at hand. We know it's coming just don't know when as of right now. Rumors has some guesses by the end of our 50th anniversary we will be flying something other than the 37's. GK at one time a year or so back also put out a memo that SWA will be looking at wide body a/c at some point in the future as they will have to find larger a/c to take on more passengers for each flight instead of more a/c. Will these two birds be done in one move? Not sure, but if you know you are going to have to do one now and one a bit later, would it not make sense to pull the trigger for both now while making the record upon record profits? I would think so but not my pay grade. It has also been said by upper-upper management (not sure if this came from GK) that they want to be able to sit 200 plus some passengers on one aircraft so your suggestion for the AB321 fits well with what they are wanting.
At sometime Southwest just needs to overlook flying the same brand for life. It has come time to entertain the idea of another manufacturer due to the current issues at hand with the Max. If and when the Max's are blessed to RTS (hopefully soon) then I would predict that SWA might put off the thoughts of changing until say 2025 or later. Once they release the Max we will jump in a/c by almost 100 pretty quickly. Somewhere between 5-10 per month (I read that somewhere) plus any cancellations from other airlines that backed out of the Max's.

 

[SharoninSAT]

If this information has already been posted, sorry!

UPDATE 2-Southwest pilots sue Boeing over alleged lost wages from 737 MAX grounding

Tracy Rucinski
ВРЕМЯ ЧТЕНИЯ 3 МИНУТ

(Adds SWAPA president quote, background)
By Tracy Rucinski

CHICAGO, Oct 7 (Reuters) - The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) said on Monday it filed a lawsuit against Boeing Co alleging that the grounding of the planemaker’s 737 MAX aircraft had caused over $100 million in lost wages.
Southwest Airlines is the largest operator of the MAX with 34 jetliners in its fleet at the time of a worldwide grounding in March following two fatal crashes that together killed 346 people.
The budget friendly carrier had 41 more MAX jets on order for this year alone, but deliveries remain frozen, forcing more than 100 daily flight cancellations and reduced flying time for pilots.
In a statement, SWAPA said the lawsuit alleges its pilots agreed to fly 737 MAX jets based on Boeing’s representations they were airworthy and similar to previous, “time-tested” 737 models they had flown for years.
“These representations were false,” SWAPA said.
Boeing spokesman Chaz Bickers said: “While we value our long relationship with SWAPA, we believe this lawsuit is meritless and will vigorously defend against it.”

The planemaker will continue to work with Southwest and its pilots on efforts to safely return the MAX to service, he said.
Boeing is under pressure to deliver updated software and training to regulators in order for the aircraft to fly again, and has been negotiating compensation with customers like Southwest over the financial hit from the grounding.
“It is critical that Boeing takes whatever time is necessary to safely return the MAX to service,” said SWAPA president, Captain Jon Weaks. But he added that pilots “should not be expected to take a significant and ever-expanding financial loss as a result of Boeing’s negligence.”
SWAPA estimated that the 737 MAX grounding had wiped out more than 30,000 scheduled Southwest flights, reducing the airline’s passenger service by 8% by the end of 2019.
Southwest is scheduling without the MAX until at least early January, pending regulatory approval for commercial flight.

Pilots at American Airlines Group, which so far has canceled MAX flights through early December, have also demanded compensation for lost pay related to the 737 MAX grounding, but have not filed a lawsuit.
SWAPA, which represents around 10,000 Southwest pilots, said it filed the lawsuit in the District Court of Dallas County, Texas.
Last month Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly promised the airline would share any reimbursement from Boeing over the MAX grounding with its employees. (Reporting by Tracy Rucinski Additional reporting by David Shepardson in Washington and Eric M. Johnson in Seattle Editing by Leslie Adler and Tom Brown)

 

[KCFlyer]

If this information has already been posted, sorry!

UPDATE 2-Southwest pilots sue Boeing over alleged lost wages from 737 MAX grounding

Tracy Rucinski
ВРЕМЯ ЧТЕНИЯ 3 МИНУТ

(Adds SWAPA president quote, background)
By Tracy Rucinski

CHICAGO, Oct 7 (Reuters) - The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) said on Monday it filed a lawsuit against Boeing Co alleging that the grounding of the planemaker’s 737 MAX aircraft had caused over $100 million in lost wages.
Southwest Airlines is the largest operator of the MAX with 34 jetliners in its fleet at the time of a worldwide grounding in March following two fatal crashes that together killed 346 people.
The budget friendly carrier had 41 more MAX jets on order for this year alone, but deliveries remain frozen, forcing more than 100 daily flight cancellations and reduced flying time for pilots.
In a statement, SWAPA said the lawsuit alleges its pilots agreed to fly 737 MAX jets based on Boeing’s representations they were airworthy and similar to previous, “time-tested” 737 models they had flown for years.
“These representations were false,” SWAPA said.
Boeing spokesman Chaz Bickers said: “While we value our long relationship with SWAPA, we believe this lawsuit is meritless and will vigorously defend against it.”

The planemaker will continue to work with Southwest and its pilots on efforts to safely return the MAX to service, he said.
Boeing is under pressure to deliver updated software and training to regulators in order for the aircraft to fly again, and has been negotiating compensation with customers like Southwest over the financial hit from the grounding.
“It is critical that Boeing takes whatever time is necessary to safely return the MAX to service,” said SWAPA president, Captain Jon Weaks. But he added that pilots “should not be expected to take a significant and ever-expanding financial loss as a result of Boeing’s negligence.”
SWAPA estimated that the 737 MAX grounding had wiped out more than 30,000 scheduled Southwest flights, reducing the airline’s passenger service by 8% by the end of 2019.
Southwest is scheduling without the MAX until at least early January, pending regulatory approval for commercial flight.

Pilots at American Airlines Group, which so far has canceled MAX flights through early December, have also demanded compensation for lost pay related to the 737 MAX grounding, but have not filed a lawsuit.
SWAPA, which represents around 10,000 Southwest pilots, said it filed the lawsuit in the District Court of Dallas County, Texas.
Last month Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly promised the airline would share any reimbursement from Boeing over the MAX grounding with its employees. (Reporting by Tracy Rucinski Additional reporting by David Shepardson in Washington and Eric M. Johnson in Seattle Editing by Leslie Adler and Tom Brown)

Will someone please relay this to the powers that be - I believe that SWA pilots and mechanics are among the best in the world. But I don't trust Boeing's software developers. Being the largest operator of the MAX may well cost you some customers. I get 'fly by wire', but MCAS isn't "fly by wire". And it's a software problem that has kept this plane grounded for 8 months or more.

 

[swamt]

If this information has already been posted, sorry!

UPDATE 2-Southwest pilots sue Boeing over alleged lost wages from 737 MAX grounding

Tracy Rucinski
ВРЕМЯ ЧТЕНИЯ 3 МИНУТ

(Adds SWAPA president quote, background)
By Tracy Rucinski

CHICAGO, Oct 7 (Reuters) - The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) said on Monday it filed a lawsuit against Boeing Co alleging that the grounding of the planemaker’s 737 MAX aircraft had caused over $100 million in lost wages.
Southwest Airlines is the largest operator of the MAX with 34 jetliners in its fleet at the time of a worldwide grounding in March following two fatal crashes that together killed 346 people.
The budget friendly carrier had 41 more MAX jets on order for this year alone, but deliveries remain frozen, forcing more than 100 daily flight cancellations and reduced flying time for pilots.
In a statement, SWAPA said the lawsuit alleges its pilots agreed to fly 737 MAX jets based on Boeing’s representations they were airworthy and similar to previous, “time-tested” 737 models they had flown for years.
“These representations were false,” SWAPA said.
Boeing spokesman Chaz Bickers said: “While we value our long relationship with SWAPA, we believe this lawsuit is meritless and will vigorously defend against it.”

The planemaker will continue to work with Southwest and its pilots on efforts to safely return the MAX to service, he said.
Boeing is under pressure to deliver updated software and training to regulators in order for the aircraft to fly again, and has been negotiating compensation with customers like Southwest over the financial hit from the grounding.
“It is critical that Boeing takes whatever time is necessary to safely return the MAX to service,” said SWAPA president, Captain Jon Weaks. But he added that pilots “should not be expected to take a significant and ever-expanding financial loss as a result of Boeing’s negligence.”
SWAPA estimated that the 737 MAX grounding had wiped out more than 30,000 scheduled Southwest flights, reducing the airline’s passenger service by 8% by the end of 2019.
Southwest is scheduling without the MAX until at least early January, pending regulatory approval for commercial flight.

Pilots at American Airlines Group, which so far has canceled MAX flights through early December, have also demanded compensation for lost pay related to the 737 MAX grounding, but have not filed a lawsuit.
SWAPA, which represents around 10,000 Southwest pilots, said it filed the lawsuit in the District Court of Dallas County, Texas.
Last month Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly promised the airline would share any reimbursement from Boeing over the MAX grounding with its employees. (Reporting by Tracy Rucinski Additional reporting by David Shepardson in Washington and Eric M. Johnson in Seattle Editing by Leslie Adler and Tom Brown)

Hi Sharon, great to hear from you again.
Not sure where the Pilots are going with this, but then again, I'm not a Pilot. I have not heard of any other Pilot groups suing so far. Wondering if it's a move in order to get the majority of the compensation coming from Boeing to Southwest. It's Southwest that pays the Pilots salary not Boeing, but by suing Boeing now it may be a way to even more out of boeing to take care of the PIlots suit on top of the compensation coming to SWA. Interesting that SWAPA is the only group so far. You would think other Pilots groups would have followed SWAPA with their own suits as well or join them in a huge class-action suit.
I just hope we can get our Max's back in the air ASAP, but, only in the most safer manner possible and fixes all troubles. I really do think the 2nd backup system as well as the software and new training will prevail a safe product. I myself said from day one if Boeing didn't install a second backup system for the AOA tied to the MCAS system that I would not get on the Max's again. Now they are doing that, adding the second backup system, installing new software programming, new training, and putting the ultimate testing to this MCAS, and AOA pretty sure it is the correct fix, so I would be fine with flying them in the future. I know it will not be enough for all passengers and will still be a problem for some to fly the Max 8, that will all be addressed and watched in the future to determine if a new model would be needed to replace the Max 8.

 

[swamt]

Will someone please relay this to the powers that be - I believe that SWA pilots and mechanics are among the best in the world. But I don't trust Boeing's software developers. Being the largest operator of the MAX may well cost you some customers. I get 'fly by wire', but MCAS isn't "fly by wire". And it's a software problem that has kept this plane grounded for 8 months or more.

If you did not know, they are also adding a second backup system for the AOA (Angle Of Attack) that works with the MCAS characteristics. Also many more new hours of training for the flight crews on new systems, software, and checklist that will all change once this is all said and over.
I do agree it will cost us some passengers who will just refuse to get on the Max 8, and that may even spread a bit into other Max models as most people are just calling it the Max birds. It may get bad enough to entertain a new model at SWA. Hence why we are hearing of late of us looking at other manufacturers.
Just so you know I feel much, much better that they are adding the second backup for the AOA and MCAS systems. If I am not mistaken this was the very first aircraft with only 1 backup system with the AOA. So I will be just fine with that fix to fly them again once they are released.

 

[swamt]

So on top of the 34 Max a/c grounded we had 38 grounded to double check that proper maint was performed by one of our vendors, ATS.
What is funny there is no mention of a job action. IF we were still in contract talks this would be considered a job action being done by the mechanics. Just like they did before with the new maint paperwork causing the groundings of a/c for minor findings that required them to be grounded per the co's paperwork. See how they always spin things for their own favor? Same thing here as back when per the paperwork instructions a/c were grounded. I guess at this time there is nothing there to fit their agenda...

Southwest Airlines grounds 38 planes for maintenance checks

 

[swamt]

Now SWA stretches cancellations to March. The one year marker for the groundings. What a mess...

Southwest extends 737 Max cancellations until March

 

[swamt]

Although this very well could be posturing for their lawsuit, it seems as of late the the trust for Boeing is going the wrong way. Now even the Pilots are suggesting looking at a different manufacturer for new planes.

Leader of pilots’ union blasts Boeing over grounded plane