Southwest misses Runway

[tbags]

And YES I can tell the difference. I have repeated my local experience too many times and I must have made a mistake somewhere. I must have conffused another AMA inccident with an ex Morris -300.
Chris

p.s. The BUR incident was also a -300 so I can''t remember wich was #300 and which was the Morris A/C

 

[wannabe CRJ driver]

Let''s not start pointing fingers at the crew until we know ALL the details. We can all speculate and get all hot and bothered before we know what actually happened out there.

Busdriver, you of all people you should know what looks good to one crew may not look good to another....so just because there were thunderstorms in the area doesn''t mean that they were unsafe in the attempt to land.

So far this was an unfortunate accident....let''s all be the professionals we claim to be and leave it at that.....for now

 

[Speedbird]

busdrvr can't help himself because he's a pathological rock thrower and finger pointer. If you don't believe it then go back and read the vast majority of his 700+ posts on this board. He's made far more enemies than friends. Bottomline, if (fill in the blank) doesn't have the "UAL stamp of approval" on it, then it is busdrvr's self-induced obligation to criticize and question it with his usual condescending style.

You're best bet is to just ignore him and his drivel like I normally do. I made an exception on this occasion since he's made it a point to Monday morning quarterback the decsion of two fellow professionals without one iota of the facts in his possession.

BTW, if anyone wants to know the quick and powerful effects that a wind gust can have on a large commercial aircraft, there is an old news video in Los Angeles of a UPS DC-8 that was literally blown off the runway just prior to going into its flare by an estimated 70kt crossswind gust (Santa Ana wind condition) at ONT several years ago. Luckily for the crew they had the ability to execute a go-around and missed touching down by only a few feet.

Thankfully in this situation at AMA, the only damage was to the aircraft, which is replaceable. In one event, these two pilots have learned more about windeshear, microbursts, and thunderstorms than most professional aviators will ever know in their entire careers...even busdrvr.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/29/2003 1056 AM wannabe CRJ driver wrote:


Let''s not start pointing fingers at the crew until we know ALL the details. We can all speculate and get all hot and bothered before we know what actually happened out there.

Busdriver, you of all people you should know what looks good to one crew may not look good to another....so just because there were thunderstorms in the area doesn''t mean that they were unsafe in the attempt to land. 

So far this was an unfortunate accident....let''s all be the professionals we claim to be and leave it at that.....for now


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CRJ, I thought speculation was about 98% of this boards purpose. But what is YOUR read on the incident. Did a severe TS just pop up when they were on 1/2 mile final? By definition, this was a bad decision. Bad decisions happen EVERYWHERE, and as long as there are people designing, building, maintaining and flying jets, then EVERY airline is an accident waiting to happen. It has been my experience and is my opinion that the SWA culture ENCOURAGES pushing things to the limit. Of course, guys like speedbird, with his VAST airline experience (and all those years flying the tweet around he flagpole) will say that''s bashing, but again, what is acceptable when YOUR family is onboard.

 

[N421LV]

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CRJ, I thought speculation was about 98% of this boards purpose. But what is YOUR read on the incident. Did a severe TS just pop up when they were on 1/2 mile final? By definition, this was a bad decision. Bad decisions happen EVERYWHERE, and as long as there are people designing, building, maintaining and flying jets, then EVERY airline is an accident waiting to happen. It has been my experience and is my opinion that the SWA culture ENCOURAGES pushing things to the limit.
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Sure, everyone has opinions (mine happens to be that the shoe "Sky-Nazi" fits those arrogant SOBs at UAL far better than AA), but what EXPERIENCE do you have with the SWA culture that leads you to this belief?

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Of course, guys like speedbird, with his VAST airline experience (and all those years flying the tweet around he flagpole) will say that''s bashing, but again, what is acceptable when YOUR family is onboard.

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LOL! Speedbird probably has a lot more airline experince than your paltry, what...two years and change at UAL?

And as for acceptable to my family? Let''s see...32+ years of operations, 2800+ flights a day (the most of ANY airline), and not a single passenger fatality? That''s good enough for mine!

 

[Speedbird]

421LV:

Actually I''m the one with only 2 1/2 years of airline experience (JBLU). However, if someone were naive to believe busdrvr, then only airline pilots flying part 121 ops ever have to deal with weather decisions while flying.

While I may be a tenderfoot airline pilot, I spent 20+ years in the Air Force and did pick up a couple of things along the way with regard to flying and the weather (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

Its kind of amazing but mother nature doesn''t know the difference between a civilian airliner and a military aircraft when a pilot decides to violate her rules. As for my early flying days in the T-37 out in the panhandle of West Texas, I learned real quick what a thunderstorm can do. Unlike the modern airliners I command now, the Tweet didn''t allow me to wait around all day to make a decision while looking at my fancy weather radar, burning oodles of JP-4. That was some of the best flying experience I ever got around the ol'' flagpole at Reese, and I ain''t ashamed to admit it.

 

[N421LV]

I stand corrected, Speed.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/29/2003 8:41:07 PM Speedbird wrote:

421LV:

"While I may be a tenderfoot airline pilot, I spent 20+ years in the Air Force and did pick up a couple of things along the way with regard to flying and the weather (tongue firmly planted in cheek)."

I''ve flown with enough over the hill LTC''s to do anything but laugh at that one.

"Its kind of amazing but mother nature doesn''t know the difference between a civilian airliner and a military aircraft when a pilot decides to violate her rules. As for my early flying days in the T-37 out in the panhandle of West Texas, I learned real quick what a thunderstorm can do. Unlike the modern airliners I command now, the Tweet didn''t allow me to wait around all day to make a decision while looking at my fancy weather radar, burning oodles of JP-4."


No, it allowed you to pick and choose where you were flying though. If there where TS''s in AMA, you went to DYS or ABI. BTW, I''ve prob got about double your years in ATC, so you can''t BS me. But please enlighten me, is it OK in you "vastly experienced greybeard" world to land in a thunderstorm? Yes or no?

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[Busdrvr]

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On 5/30/2003 12:27:40 AM spanky wrote:

"Busdwvr,

Should we talk about the 747 that came within a 100 feet of slamming into a San Francisco hillside 4 years ago because the crew improperly handled an engine out situation? Every airline has had its share of embarrassments or tragedies."

You are ABSOLUTELY correct. the question is what do you do AFTER an accident or incident? UAL COMPLETELY changed the way they trained widebody F/O's and the currency they must maintain. That was after a textbook most critical catastrophic engine failure AT V1, and the changes were made before the press got wind of it. Why does SWA still insist on paying pilots by the "trip", and make them fly the first 15 minutes of delay for free? To keep productivity high? What message are you sending? GET THERE, GET THERE, GET THERE!! SWA DID change some of it's before taxi procedures after a rash of attempted flaps up TO's. Maybe it's time to re-examine the ops tempo.

"Your attempt to slander WN pilots as being "cowboys" is ridiculous. Our safety record for over 30 years speaks for itself."

Are you a Luv pilot?

"Taking one incident and claiming the "sky is falling" is naive and ludicrous."


I'm not. BURBANK, AMA, and that little runway incursion where you almost took out a UAL guppy on TO roll.

"I would spend less time concentrating on Southwest if I were you. You've got more important things to worry about..."

really? What's more important than safety at YOUR airline (I think your buddies have already answered that with the "but we're profitable" mantra)

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[Busdrvr]

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On 5/29/2003 5:58:12 PM N421LV wrote:

And as for acceptable to my family? Let''s see...32+ years of operations, 2800+ flights a day (the most of ANY airline), and not a single passenger fatality? That''s good enough for mine!


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That''s your paragative. AMR had a similar run before the recent spat of "bad luck". If you think it''s OK to fly into a TS or attempt to land 30 knots too fast on a under 6000 ft runway, good for you. I personally think it''s irresponsible, but what do I know, I''m just a pilot. So sit back and enjoy the peanuts and magazine. Too bad it appears that you have to wait until somebody actually DIES before thinking a change in corporate culture is appropriate. I''d like to see a change before something bad happens.

 

[spanky]

Busdwvr,

You''re just pissed that WN has done some serious ass kickin'' on UAL over the past 20 years. Now that you''re down and out, you''ll take any opportunity to vent your frustrations. Should we talk about the 747 that came within a 100 feet of slamming into a San Francisco hillside 4 years ago because the crew improperly handled an engine out situation? Every airline has had its share of embarrassments or tragedies. Your attempt to slander WN pilots as being "cowboys" is ridiculous. Our safety record for over 30 years speaks for itself. Taking one incident and claiming the "sky is falling" is naive and ludicrous. I would spend less time concentrating on Southwest if I were you. You''ve got more important things to worry about...

 

[mrman]

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On 5/29/2003 11:44:59 PM Busdrvr wrote:

So sit back and enjoy the peanuts and magazine.

_________

While why I think most of us would agree this string is well stupid, I must say as a FF that puts in more time on planes than most pilots a month, I would choose WN safety record over an airline cash strapped in bankruptcy with a pilot with a grudge. Oh and at least on WN I can get peanuts and a magazine in coach.​

 

[wannabe CRJ driver]

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On 5/29/2003 12:54:48 PM Busdrvr wrote:


CRJ, I thought speculation was about 98% of this boards purpose. But what is YOUR read on the incident. Did a severe TS just pop up when they were on 1/2 mile final? By definition, this was a bad decision. Bad decisions happen EVERYWHERE, and as long as there are people designing, building, maintaining and flying jets, then EVERY airline is an accident waiting to happen. It has been my experience and is my opinion that the SWA culture ENCOURAGES pushing things to the limit. Of course, guys like speedbird, with his VAST airline experience (and all those years flying the tweet around he flagpole) will say that's bashing, but again, what is acceptable when YOUR family is onboard.


----------------​

My take on the whole incident is that the what the crew did were logical with what the weather was doing at the time. Other aircraft were making approachs into AMA at the time,sadly the SW crew got caught out. It's happened to the best and worst of us out there. Thats my take, but then again looking at my logbook I only have about 750 hours driving around Florida in Cessnas...I defer to the professionals.

I'm not gonna bash you busdriver(although we've had some knock-down,drag down aguments on this board ) but blaming the company culture for 2 incidents is a little ignorant. Are the SW guys cowboys.....maybe,maybe not....it depends on which pilot you meet. Are they professionals....hell yes,each and every one of them.

I'm gonna end my post with this.......After working with those guys for almost 3 years, I personally trust all past,present and future Southwest pilots with my life and the life of my family and friends. Thousands do the same every day and they can be no higher award for those guys than that.

 

[N421LV]

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On 5/29/2003 11:44:59 PM Busdrvr wrote:


Too bad it appears that you have to wait until somebody actually DIES before thinking a change in corporate culture is appropriate. I''d like to see a change before something bad happens.

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Wow, you really ought to take a chill pill, my friend.

Be honest. You know as well as I that we could wake up tomorrow morning and see the news blazing about a horrible fatal airline accident involving ANY major airline. Is it likely? Hardly. We both know that EVERY major airline does a VERY good job of training their people and operating their fleets. But as long as humans are involved, accidents will happen. Contributing factors could be that "Cowboy mentality at Southwestern Airways"....or they could just as easily be:

1) Crew Fatigue - from those unproductive duty days (read: lots of sit time) mixed with a Wx or Mx delay. But this is rarely an issue at SWA because with our productive schedules we are either flying or at the hotel.

2) Currency - from that guy sitting reserve who actually got called out to fly a trip (first time he''s had to fly in months). But this is rarely an issue at SWA because we operate with far less manning per aircraft, so even our reserves typically fly several trips each month.

3) Lack of Time in Type - from the captain who upgrades (or more likely these days, downgrades) into an aircraft he has never flown before, then gets paired with an F/O in the same situation. But this a non-issue at SWA because we only operate one aircraft type.

4) Over-reliance on Automation - from the crew that spends more time pushing buttons and watching meters than flying the aircraft. But this is rarely an issue at SWA because we are one of the few airlines that believes the pilot needs to remain in the loop...hence no auto-throttles, auto-land, or "Gear-Up, Autopilot-On"


So you can keep up this charade of being concerned over how we fly, but it''s pretty obvious to anyone who''s read more than a few of your posts that your real agenda is to bash any airline that dares compare itself favorably with your beloved United.

Fly safe...when (if?) you get recalled, that is.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/30/2003 11:32:45 PM N421LV wrote:

4) Over-reliance on Automation - from the crew that spends more time pushing buttons and watching meters than flying the aircraft. But this is rarely an issue at SWA because we are one of the few airlines that believes the pilot needs to remain in the loop...hence no auto-throttles, auto-land, or "Gear-Up, Autopilot-On"


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Maybe after you guys get some symblance of a CLR course, you''ll see that statistic CLEARLY show SUBSTANTIALLY lower accident rates for more highly automated modern versions of EVERY aircraft type where the coparison can be made. I don''t think I "need to chill" merely responding to the ludicrous post that thinks nothing should change until SWA actually has a pax fatality. I notice you still didn''t answer the basic question, IS IT EVER OK TO LAND IN A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM? Your remarks on crew fatigue and automation suggest you either aren''t a pilot are have no idea how things are done at other airlines. Get over yourself, you need to realize that you are just as susceptable to accidents as anyone else and you shouldn''t be applauding company policies that encourage you to put your pax in harms way. JMHO.