Some more "yield pressure" for Delta in ATL

[WorldTraveler]

which again is directly tied to WN's reduction in service and the increase in fares.

The ULCCs see an opportunity and they are trying to fill it.

unlike dawg who thinks DL will just ignore them, there is an analyst report out on Spirit today that says they fully expect DL to match NK fares on flights that line up.

that is what the economy basic fares are all about.

DL is doing it now and will continue to do it.

 

[topDawg]

DL doesn't have to have identical costs with every carrier to be able to compete.

you don't understand the way airline networks and costs work.

DL can compete where it needs to because of revenue mgmt.

Your assumption that DL doesn't care about NK is flat out wrong

I told you why you will see fewer Basic Economy fares right now. when flights to Florida are full and the NE is shut down in part every week due to weather, it makes little sense to offer fares that low

By your "DL doesn't have the costs to compete with NK" statement, DL shouldn't be trying to compete with AS since they have lower costs.

You should send Richard a note. He didn't realize he was trying to build a hub in a lower cost competitor's backyard.

and you thought that competing with 10 flights/day from ATL is something DL can't do.

I mean you can "tell" me all you want but that doesn't make it true. 
 
because like I have told you before, you can do this cool thing now(might not have been able to when you were at Delta).....you can jump on Delta.com and buy tickets for like......months away from now. So Delta isn't offing the low fare class to places like LGA in the summer because of winter storms? 
 
and AS/DL costs are much closer than DL/NK. More importantly they two things are not remotely comparable. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

probably because you don't understand that the ULCCs are in and out of markets so fast that people don't buy tickets on them months in advance, esp. on F9.

if you knew the booking curve, you would find that DL is being competitive and it isn't the same formula in every market.

you are the only one that thinks that DL doesn't care about NK.. which should tell you something when the analysts expect DL to be competitive and yet you don't believe it.

as for costs, DL doesn't intend to be fully competitive with NK.... if you can't understand that DL can price enough of its product at the right time using DL's costs to limit their ability, then I can't help you because you simply don't understand revenue mgmt.

that's all right though. People on the 4th and 5th floors don't try to fix planes.

 

[swamt]

Less than two weeks later it appears Frontier will be adding service in ATL too.

Announcement to come tomorrow per atlantaga.gov. The mayor will be on hand to be prt of the announcement.

Yes 628.  Here's the article below.  Frontier is the 3rd airline to announce new flights and going after ATL passengers.  One article I read said some are expecting a possible JB announcement too, this may get even more interesting.  This should easily make the average fare in ATL come down, which will be good for all the travelers.  Some will try to say it was Delta for the low fares, but we all know it is because of all the new airlines moving in and all 3 of them starting fare wars from $19-$99 depending on airline and destination.  Now with 2 ULCC's moving into ATL the fares are sure to stay low. Let see how long Delta will sustain the price matching if they match at all...
 
Frontier Airlines expanding in Atlanta

 

[WorldTraveler]

and driven by your desire for revenge, you show your ignorance about the economics of the US airline industry.

in EVERY hub market where a lower cost carrier has competed with two higher cost, higher fare carriers, it is the #2, not #1 carrier that is hurt the most by the growth of ULCC competition.

It is precisely why WN made the push to grow at DEN so that it is now the #1 domestic local airline from DEN.

the only exception to the rule has been DFW, where NK took share from AA because WN could not compete in most of the markets that NK is competing in.

It is precisely as DAL can now compete AND IS GROWING that NK's growth in domestic DFW markets has slowed and they are looking elsewhere for growth - which is why they turned to ATL where WN's higher fares and less frequent service will make it easier for NK, F9, and others to take share from WN long before it will hurt DL.

that is the nature of having a large hub as an advantage compared to the local market. Because WN has dismantled ATL as a hub, they have to compete against the ULCCs without the advantage of connecting passengers to help fill planes and without the higher fares that DL has long garnered due to its larger schedule and more robust service .

so, no, the ULCCs with one to 3 flights/day are far more of a threat to WN and its amrkets where it has less than 3 flights/day than to DL where there are very few markets that have less than 8 flights/day almost always on larger aircraft.

all of the ULCC growth could be the last straw in forcing WN to reduce ATL down to a spoke to its hubs/focus cities.

 

[jcw]

Translation: when other airlines thought about moving into ATL they looked at the market and deleted DL from the analysis because DL was not relevant these other airlines were focusing on non DL traffic - if you believe that story line being spun here there are a good number of bridges that are for sale

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

This is just too hilarious!

in EVERY hub market where a lower cost carrier has competed with two higher cost, higher fare carriers, it is the #2, not #1 carrier that is hurt the most by the growth of ULCC competition.

Gee, I wonder who the #2 airline at DFW could be. The answer is DL. So, how does one spin things to fit a certain narrative. Let's make up something.

Voila!

the only exception to the rule has been DFW, where NK took share from AA

 
It's no wonder you've become known as World Fraudster. 
 
You've just fabricated yet another fairy tale.
 
And the fairy tale is that no matter what, DL wins!!!!

Oh man,this piece of work could yet be your masterpiece.

 

[topDawg]

that's all right though. People on the 4th and 5th floors don't try to fix planes.

If you want to go that road Leo
 
Old got paid to leave (and they don't pay you to leave if you are so great what you do) people with huge egos who know very little about the industry wash outs probably should be tossing stones.

 

[topDawg]

This is just too hilarious!


Gee, I wonder who the #2 airline at DFW could be. The answer is DL. So, how does one spin things to fit a certain narrative. Let's make up something.

Voila!
 
It's no wonder you've become known as World Fraudster. 
 
You've just fabricated yet another fairy tale.
 
And the fairy tale is that no matter what, DL wins!!!!

Oh man,this piece of work could yet be your masterpiece.

No no. 
Its different. 
 
That doesn't count
 
 
 
profitsharing. 

 

[swamt]

Oh, of course gentlemen, of course...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Translation: when other airlines thought about moving into ATL they looked at the market and deleted DL from the analysis because DL was not relevant these other airlines were focusing on non DL traffic - if you believe that story line being spun here there are a good number of bridges that are for sale

 
no, it just means that you and others have no idea what you are talking about.

ATL has always been a two airline hub. Eastern was far larger than what WN is today. so was FL.

You and others might hate to admit it but the sole reason why F9 and NK are growing in ATL is because WN has shrunk so far that they no longer are considered a viable competitor. When there are more than two dozen markets that WN serves with 3 or fewer flights/day, it is very easy for another competitor to add a single flight/day... and in some cases, the combined amount of service by F9 and NK is more than what WN offers.


I don't make network decisions for F9 or NK so you can go ask them but don't be surprised if they tell you that it is WN's weakness - not DL's - that provided them with an opportunity to grow.

And it is the exact same dynamic that took place in DEN. F9 and WN both grew while UA was weak. It was only when UA started fighting back that F9 was the one that got booted.

Given that both F9 and NK are trying to grow in ATL, the chances are that WN will be the one that is reduced to serving just its hubs/focus cities with NK and F9 dividing the rest of the market that DL doesn't care. DL's share is unlikely to be changed.

 

[dash8roa]

I don't think WN has much to worry about from F9 and NK. They offer a better class of service both on the ground and in the air. No nickel and dime pony show like Frontier and Spirit. WN has been a consistent money maker for year's, never having a losing year. Their employees are much more customer oriented and WN is very particular on their hiring process. I've never been on a bad WN flight, can't say the same about some others. WN will continue to have a sizable presence in ATL and will adapt to the coming Greyhound airlines such as F9 and NK.

 

[jimntx]

Amen, brother.  When people (particularly at my airline, AA) start running down Southwest, I remind them that 17 straight years without a losing quarter has never been nor will it ever be duplicated by any other airline.  Then, I ask them..."Have you ever run across an unhappy Southwest employee?"  I haven't.  There must be some, but I haven't run across one, and I live in Dallas, and used to commute to STL on Southwest often.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WN also is smart enough to get out of markets where it is marginalized because it knows that getting revenue premiums depends on dominating the market.

that is why the whole notion that they are going to succeed in ATL markets against DL where DL has 3 or more times more service than ATL is such a farce.

they have never succeeded in that type of scenario in any other hub market and yet some people think they will succeed in doing the same thing in ATL.

and F9 and NK appeal to the super thrifty passengers but there is no hard price point for most passengers; some will definitely be loyal to a particular carrier or say that a service service pattern is not for them, but that is the minority of leisure passengers.

Neither WN, F9, or NK is going to gain a meaningful share of business passengers in most ATL markets up against DL.

 

[swamt]

Amen, brother.  When people (particularly at my airline, AA) start running down Southwest, I remind them that 17 straight years without a losing quarter has never been nor will it ever be duplicated by any other airline.  Then, I ask them..."Have you ever run across an unhappy Southwest employee?"  I haven't.  There must be some, but I haven't run across one, and I live in Dallas, and used to commute to STL on Southwest often.

Ahhhhhh.  The memories of commuting to STL.  Just glad I no longer have to do it.  Extremely popular route and always pretty full...