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Seeking Info Please
- Thread starter FA Mikey
- Start date
aislehopper
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 331
- 9
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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
Regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:
It was written to be voted down.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
Regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:
It was written to be voted down.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
----------------
I disagree. Management teams do not want to take companies into Chapter 11. First, it is expensive. The process is good for Bankruptcy lawyers, but it diverts cash to fees that can better be used for operations. Also, it is harder and more expensive to access capital in Chapter 11. Not to mention that passengers off book because they are afraid of a failure of the airline or fear that maintenance will be deferred. All of these factors and more mean that there is a financial disincentive for management to go into bankruptcy.
Second, taking a company into bankruptcy will mean a loss of control for current management. While they may not lose their jobs, they do lose control of the company. They have to seek approval for many of their decisions. Creditor''s commitees and a judge examines everything that they do.
Finally, Chapter 11 is about the creditors. The role of the judge and the process is to safeguard the assets of the creditors. If it makes more sense to liquidate, the judge will liquidate.
It is doubtful that management wants to take AA into Chapter 11. These T/A''s were the result of a compromise that weighed labor''s needs, management''s needs, and the impact of the economy on AA''s tattered balance sheet. I doubt that anyone got all that they wanted.
As you learn about labor management relations, never forget the impact of economics.
To take the position that AA employees should stand their ground when standing thier ground will cost more jobs is irresponsible. It sounds like you have fallen under the influence of an ideologue. Labor today is different than labor in the 1950''s. Maybe it is this disconnect with economic realities that has caused labors decline.
In the real world in this economy, you do what is necessary to survive.
No, these T/A''s were not designed to be voted down. They were designed to save a company and ultimately jobs.
will fix for food
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 664
- 50
How much is the Booby's Beer Blast going for these days?
siucstudent
Newbie
- Apr 5, 2003
- 12
- 0
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On 4/9/2003 9:56:59 AM FA Mikey wrote:
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FAMikey, On 4/9/2003 9:56:59 AM FA Mikey wrote:
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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:
From the outside looking in and I know it is easy to do, considering we are doing it from behind a chalkboard, but this appears to stink from high heaven.
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That''s just it. From the outside looking in. With absolutely nothing to lose in the outcome. Real lives and people are at stake here. Things do not get easier in a BK court. DIP financing will depend on specific cuts. AA will get them from the judge. We will live with a gun to our heads with the threat of chapter 7 at every turn. On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
regarding the TWU GroundWorkers T/A:
From the outside looking in and I know it is easy to do, considering we are doing it from behind a chalkboard, but this appears to stink from high heaven.
----------------
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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
First of all, the motion to accept was made by Charlie Meyer a 3 time bankruptcy IAM President and member employee of the ill fated Trans World Airlines. What did STL do, just change the name on the door to his local? Second, and speaking of second, it was seconded by MCI, a previous IAM member as well. They new what they were writing. Icahn had to lock the doors from these guys because they were constantly at his desk with more to offer. This is still a raise for them, yet it is exactly what the company was looking for to present to the judge and say, "Look your honor, we tried".
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Well, someone had to first and second it. So be it from the people who know how much worse it can be in a BK court. It was duly fairly voted on and in to record. The motion passed.On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
First of all, the motion to accept was made by Charlie Meyer a 3 time bankruptcy IAM President and member employee of the ill fated Trans World Airlines. What did STL do, just change the name on the door to his local? Second, and speaking of second, it was seconded by MCI, a previous IAM member as well. They new what they were writing. Icahn had to lock the doors from these guys because they were constantly at his desk with more to offer. This is still a raise for them, yet it is exactly what the company was looking for to present to the judge and say, "Look your honor, we tried".
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On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
This T/A you are voting on was written to be as bad as it is for a reason. Nobody at AA could have dreamed this much horror on 39 pieces of paper. It took bankruptcy experience and STL and MCI provided it for you. The company has full intention of using bankruptcy protection, employee contracts are just the tip of the iceberg as far as relief they are seeking. The whole industry is seeking.
It was written to be voted down.
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Voted up, voted down. In the end this will always be the lesser, of the two evils. No way BK will make life easier, or a career safer. If it is such a great choice why don''t you try it out on yourself for a while. A personal BK. Then keep us up to date on the proceedings and fun and easy times you are having. After you emerge we will want to hear all about the great time you have trying to get credit, a house or car with that over your head. On 4/9/2003 9:25:48 AM siucstudent wrote:
This T/A you are voting on was written to be as bad as it is for a reason. Nobody at AA could have dreamed this much horror on 39 pieces of paper. It took bankruptcy experience and STL and MCI provided it for you. The company has full intention of using bankruptcy protection, employee contracts are just the tip of the iceberg as far as relief they are seeking. The whole industry is seeking.
It was written to be voted down.
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I am smart enough to know the difference, even as a student with no experience yet in the industry, to know the difference between corporate bankruptcy and personal bankruptcy. It is like comparing apples to oranges. Do you honestly think that the creditors will come to Carty''s house and put his belongings on the street, take away his buick and tell him he can''t buy a new car for the next 10 years? NO. He is going to come out with huge bonuses and high-fiving every other CEO in the industry with what they have finally accomplished.
SIUCstudent
Carbondale, IL
siucstudent
Newbie
- Apr 5, 2003
- 12
- 0
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On 4/9/2003 10:31:58 AM stlslim wrote:
It is amazing how in a few short posts, you have gone from information seeker to rabble rouser. It makes me thing that maybe your are just trying out a new way to inflame a bad situation.
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On 4/9/2003 10:31:58 AM stlslim wrote:
It is amazing how in a few short posts, you have gone from information seeker to rabble rouser. It makes me thing that maybe your are just trying out a new way to inflame a bad situation.
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Yes, you better believe that I am gathering information. I would hope that your fellow union brothers and sisters are also trying to gather information. I have yet to enter this industry workforce, and have yet to decide which angle I will enter -- union or management. Can you blame me for seeking out information? Again, the same kind of information that you and everyone else in the airline industry should be seeking. If I am striking nerves, then so be it. History shows that the airlines have a downturn every 10 years. Are we managing for the long term or is this a case of mangement by reaction with no planning? Now if you have any valid input, it would surely be appreciated.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
siucstudent
Newbie
- Apr 5, 2003
- 12
- 0
Aislehopper,
Thanks for the info. It is very educational and what I am looking for.
Yeah, you were right. One of the last videos we saw in class was Jimmy Hoffa.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
Thanks for the info. It is very educational and what I am looking for.
Yeah, you were right. One of the last videos we saw in class was Jimmy Hoffa.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
aislehopper
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 331
- 9
SIUC:
One of Covey''s 7 habits is "seek first to understand, then be understood." You have come to an excellent place to get information to help you understand. Most here are glad to answer questions. You will see different viewpoints that will add to your own knowlege base and help you craft your own opinions. However, its best not to let your opinions get everyone PO''d in the early stages of communication. It''s not conducive to a free flow of information.
AH
One of Covey''s 7 habits is "seek first to understand, then be understood." You have come to an excellent place to get information to help you understand. Most here are glad to answer questions. You will see different viewpoints that will add to your own knowlege base and help you craft your own opinions. However, its best not to let your opinions get everyone PO''d in the early stages of communication. It''s not conducive to a free flow of information.
AH
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On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote:
If I may, I found your board by searching the web for current news on the industry to complete a required assignment for my Labor Relations course here at SIUC's Aviation program. It appears AA may be next for the BK chopping block. Before posting I spent hours reading posts in all current threads.
My questions are:
1. Have your unions or has the company clearly outlined the Tentative Agreement?
No they have not. And there is a reason for this. The agreements are likely to change. The TWU has decided to use a new system. Voting by phone over a 5-day period. AAA will reveal to the union what percentage has voted. If there is a huge surge of votes early on its likely to be NO votes. This is because the YES voters will typically wait until the last minute to vote away approximately 30% of their future earnings.
2. Why such a bitter relationship between unions within the same company?
For the most part there is not. There is more bitterness within some unions than between unions. In the TWU there is much bitterness between line mechanics and everyone else. First between them and baggage handlers because mechanics justifiably felt that they had no rights within the union since baggage handlers outnumbered them. Relations between the two soured even more when the baggage handlers took work away from mechanics, as a result a higher percentage of line mechanics are now working midnight shift. Secondly, (is that a word?) relations are strained between the line guys, who typically live in high cost areas and OH (overhaul) which is located in lost cost areas. While most of the line mechanics were given the ability to have their own locals another problem they face is that OH, located in a low cost of living area still outnumber them. So between the fact that the separation process that created line maint locals was never completed and the Tulsa majority vote, line mechanics still cannot get consideration given to their issues. This causes a lot of frustration.
3. I understand that your unions are members of the AFL-CIO correct? You hold the keys to the aircraft that transport, and make up the very backbone of this nations economy. Then why are you allowing your individual and collective skills to be inslaved as they are?
The only people at AA in the AFL-CIO are the TWU. To the TWU the airlines are merely a profitable side business. For the most part the AFL-CIO is a paper tiger. Outside of lobbying and speeches they really don’t do much of anything. When Reagan fired PATCO they did nothing. When President Bush interfered in the NWA mechanics dispute, the UAL mechanics dispute and the Longshoreman’s dispute they did nothing. Today’s labor movement for the most part is a business and strikes are considered bad for business no matter what is at stake for the workers. This proposal is a perfect example of what business unionism produces. The appointed officials that produce such garbage are not accountable to the members. Their priority is to produce a constant reliable revenue stream of dues to the International.
4. Please describe a typical 8-hour shift for a aircraft maintenance mechanic at both the bases and at an out station. Is a full 8 hours pay fully earned? I hear rumors and have recieved emails confirming sleeping after 2-3 hours of light work. Is this true?
I only have experience as a line mechanic. Line maint is not predictable. There is a certain amount of scheduled maintenance but the airlines usually choose to man for more than that. Manning for maintenance is not contractually controlled. The company determines at its sole discretion how to man. Since delays and cancellations are very expensive it makes sense for the airlines to tend to man heavy. So yes there would be days when a mechanic spends a considerable amount of time on standby. Like a fireman, he waits for something to go wrong. Some days he will be very busy for the entire eight, others he will not. Either way he has to be paid for his time.
5. Do you see ReRegulation?
I think that deregulation has been as much of a disaster in this industry as it was in the Railroads and the S&Ls. Both resulted in severe economic turmoil and we are still paying off the S&L debacle. Ralf Nader called the S&L debacle the greatest transfer of wealth from the lower classes to the rich in the history of civilization.
Thanks,
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
----------------
On 4/8/2003 6:07:48 PM siucstudent wrote:
If I may, I found your board by searching the web for current news on the industry to complete a required assignment for my Labor Relations course here at SIUC's Aviation program. It appears AA may be next for the BK chopping block. Before posting I spent hours reading posts in all current threads.
My questions are:
1. Have your unions or has the company clearly outlined the Tentative Agreement?
No they have not. And there is a reason for this. The agreements are likely to change. The TWU has decided to use a new system. Voting by phone over a 5-day period. AAA will reveal to the union what percentage has voted. If there is a huge surge of votes early on its likely to be NO votes. This is because the YES voters will typically wait until the last minute to vote away approximately 30% of their future earnings.
2. Why such a bitter relationship between unions within the same company?
For the most part there is not. There is more bitterness within some unions than between unions. In the TWU there is much bitterness between line mechanics and everyone else. First between them and baggage handlers because mechanics justifiably felt that they had no rights within the union since baggage handlers outnumbered them. Relations between the two soured even more when the baggage handlers took work away from mechanics, as a result a higher percentage of line mechanics are now working midnight shift. Secondly, (is that a word?) relations are strained between the line guys, who typically live in high cost areas and OH (overhaul) which is located in lost cost areas. While most of the line mechanics were given the ability to have their own locals another problem they face is that OH, located in a low cost of living area still outnumber them. So between the fact that the separation process that created line maint locals was never completed and the Tulsa majority vote, line mechanics still cannot get consideration given to their issues. This causes a lot of frustration.
3. I understand that your unions are members of the AFL-CIO correct? You hold the keys to the aircraft that transport, and make up the very backbone of this nations economy. Then why are you allowing your individual and collective skills to be inslaved as they are?
The only people at AA in the AFL-CIO are the TWU. To the TWU the airlines are merely a profitable side business. For the most part the AFL-CIO is a paper tiger. Outside of lobbying and speeches they really don’t do much of anything. When Reagan fired PATCO they did nothing. When President Bush interfered in the NWA mechanics dispute, the UAL mechanics dispute and the Longshoreman’s dispute they did nothing. Today’s labor movement for the most part is a business and strikes are considered bad for business no matter what is at stake for the workers. This proposal is a perfect example of what business unionism produces. The appointed officials that produce such garbage are not accountable to the members. Their priority is to produce a constant reliable revenue stream of dues to the International.
4. Please describe a typical 8-hour shift for a aircraft maintenance mechanic at both the bases and at an out station. Is a full 8 hours pay fully earned? I hear rumors and have recieved emails confirming sleeping after 2-3 hours of light work. Is this true?
I only have experience as a line mechanic. Line maint is not predictable. There is a certain amount of scheduled maintenance but the airlines usually choose to man for more than that. Manning for maintenance is not contractually controlled. The company determines at its sole discretion how to man. Since delays and cancellations are very expensive it makes sense for the airlines to tend to man heavy. So yes there would be days when a mechanic spends a considerable amount of time on standby. Like a fireman, he waits for something to go wrong. Some days he will be very busy for the entire eight, others he will not. Either way he has to be paid for his time.
5. Do you see ReRegulation?
I think that deregulation has been as much of a disaster in this industry as it was in the Railroads and the S&Ls. Both resulted in severe economic turmoil and we are still paying off the S&L debacle. Ralf Nader called the S&L debacle the greatest transfer of wealth from the lower classes to the rich in the history of civilization.
Thanks,
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
----------------
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On 4/9/2003 2:03:09 PM siucstudent wrote:
Yes, you better believe that I am gathering information. I would hope that your fellow union brothers and sisters are also trying to gather information. I have yet to enter this industry workforce, and have yet to decide which angle I will enter -- union or management. Can you blame me for seeking out information? Again, the same kind of information that you and everyone else in the airline industry should be seeking. If I am striking nerves, then so be it. History shows that the airlines have a downturn every 10 years. Are we managing for the long term or is this a case of mangement by reaction with no planning? Now if you have any valid input, it would surely be appreciated.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
----------------
On 4/9/2003 2:03:09 PM siucstudent wrote:
----------------
On 4/9/2003 10:31:58 AM stlslim wrote:
It is amazing how in a few short posts, you have gone from information seeker to rabble rouser. It makes me thing that maybe your are just trying out a new way to inflame a bad situation.
----------------
On 4/9/2003 10:31:58 AM stlslim wrote:
It is amazing how in a few short posts, you have gone from information seeker to rabble rouser. It makes me thing that maybe your are just trying out a new way to inflame a bad situation.
----------------
Yes, you better believe that I am gathering information. I would hope that your fellow union brothers and sisters are also trying to gather information. I have yet to enter this industry workforce, and have yet to decide which angle I will enter -- union or management. Can you blame me for seeking out information? Again, the same kind of information that you and everyone else in the airline industry should be seeking. If I am striking nerves, then so be it. History shows that the airlines have a downturn every 10 years. Are we managing for the long term or is this a case of mangement by reaction with no planning? Now if you have any valid input, it would surely be appreciated.
SIUC Student
Carbondale, IL
----------------
If you decide to come in, avoid MGMT. They do to them what they would like to do to us.
siucstudent
Newbie
- Apr 5, 2003
- 12
- 0
What happened?
siucstudent
Newbie
- Apr 5, 2003
- 12
- 0
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