Quite an article

[ual727fo]

----------------
On 4/15/2003 10:31:38 AM wts54 wrote:

The esop scam was only about finding a way for the pilots

to ever increase their pay and benefits at other peoples

expense.It was a scam from the get go.

----------------​

Let me see....... 25% pay cut for 6 years. Loss of retirement contribution for 6 years. All in exchange for UAL stock that is now worthless. How is that increasing our pay and benefits at other peoples expense? During Contract 2000 negotiations
ALPA never advised the membership to slowdown. That would be illegal as you are probably aware.

 

[frequent_flyer]

----------------
On 4/15/2003 932 PM ual727fo wrote:

----------------
On 4/15/2003 10:31:38 AM wts54 wrote:

The esop scam was only about finding a way for the pilots

to ever increase their pay and benefits at other peoples

expense.It was a scam from the get go.

----------------​

Let me see....... 25% pay cut for 6 years. Loss of retirement contribution for 6 years. All in exchange for UAL stock that is now worthless. How is that increasing our pay and benefits at other peoples expense? During Contract 2000 negotiations
ALPA never advised the membership to slowdown. That would be illegal as you are probably aware.

----------------​

Of couse we believe ALPA never advised membership tp slowdown. We also belive in the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny.

FF

 

[ual747mech]

----------------
On 4/15/2003 8:03:16 PM Old Dog wrote:

ual747mech...
This article refers primarily to events that took place in 1989 - the conversation you quote between Goldstein and Dubinsky re the mailgram took place Nov 20 1989. The mailgram was never sent because the checks were turned over. Are we reading the same article or did I miss a turn someplace?
Old Dog

----------------​

So you're saying that tactic was never used during the summer of hell while Dubinsky was in charge? Was it just a coincidence that everything(flight ops) slowed down or shut down during the summer of hell while a new contract was being negotiated? I think most of you pilots know what I'm talking about. I don't blame you for doing it, you guyz did what you had to do to get a new contract but the aftermath was felt by all employees. I'm not blaming that event as a result for all the problems we're having but certainly played a big role. That made the traveling public to start booking elsewhere.

 

[atabuy]

So you''re saying that tactic was never used during the summer of hell while Dubinsky was in charge? Was it just a coincidence that everything(flight ops) slowed down or shut down during the summer of hell while a new contract was being negotiated? I think most of you pilots know what I''m talking about. I don''t blame you for doing it, you guyz did what you had to do to get a new contract but the aftermath was felt by all employees. I''m not blaming that event as a result for all the problems we''re having but certainly played a big role. That made the traveling public to start booking elsewhere.

----------------
I think there is a big difference between slow downs and working the contract, which the pilots decided to do.
They refused the overtime and instead of helping the company when they could, did not.
Every union would have done the same thing if they had the chance.
No one knew what was ahead for us. This was the usual way to settle contracts.
It is a shame that it works like this, but because of the RLA, the company takes advantage of the situation.

2 things could make such a big difference.
Wages tied to revenue, and when the contract is up, we could strike.
I think the first option would make the second a moot point.
Just a thought.

 

[Segue]

----------------

ALPA never advised the membership to slowdown. That would be illegal as you are probably aware.

----------------​

Seems like a quote from the Iraqi Information Minister!

 

[kcabpilot]

The company, under the steerage of Goodwin, made a huge blunder at the end of the ESOP. They chose not to concentrate on making the timely "seamless" contract renewals that had been promised and instead focused, with complete tunnel-vision, on a very expensive aquisition of US Air. They evidently assumed that they could get away with the usual 2 year delay tactics normally used under the RLA at contract renewal time. They were so utterly unaware of the mindset of the employees who had just finished making six years of "sacrifices". It wasn''t just the pilots, they did the same with the IAM and that even went as far as a restraining order. They simply had no intention of settling those contracts. Expecting the absolute most from your workers under a restraining order is a clear demonstration of how clueless and detached from reality this management team was.

Now, that may all be "water under the bridge" as they say. Tilton once said that we were caryying this heavy suitcase full of old baggage and we needed to let it go. Well, I might be willing but he''s still putting stuff in that suitcase.

We are now facing another six year "program". The more things change, the more they look just the same.

 

[ual747mech]

Jim,

I stand by my statement. This is taken from one of the articles in the past:

But labor isn''t United''s only problem. UAL management can look back on its share of screwups. Two years ago, UAL then-Chief Executive James E. Goodwin cancelled 23,700 flights after pilots staged a work slowdown. Thousands of furious travelers flocked to the competition. Goodwin wound up caving in to the pilots, who along with other union members were demanding catch-up pay for $4.9 billion in past concessions. So immediately after it agreed to raise its pilot payroll by $900 million, United was forced to slash fares in an attempt to win back passengers.

 

[ual747mech]

----------------
On 4/16/2003 2:54:16 PM kcabpilot wrote:

The company, under the steerage of Goodwin, made a huge blunder at the end of the ESOP. They chose not to concentrate on making the timely "seamless" contract renewals that had been promised and instead focused, with complete tunnel-vision, on a very expensive aquisition of US Air. They evidently assumed that they could get away with the usual 2 year delay tactics normally used under the RLA at contract renewal time. They were so utterly unaware of the mindset of the employees who had just finished making six years of "sacrifices". It wasn't just the pilots, they did the same with the IAM and that even went as far as a restraining order. They simply had no intention of settling those contracts. Expecting the absolute most from your workers under a restraining order is a clear demonstration of how clueless and detached from reality this management team was.

Now, that may all be "water under the bridge" as they say. Tilton once said that we were caryying this heavy suitcase full of old baggage and we needed to let it go. Well, I might be willing but he's still putting stuff in that suitcase.

We are now facing another six year "program". The more things change, the more they look just the same.

----------------​

I was about to say that in the pilots defense. Check out this article:

In May, James E. Goodwin, the new chairman and CEO of UAL Corp. (UAL), stunned the industry by agreeing to buy US Airways Group Inc. (U) for $11.6 billion. Since then, however, UAL has been the one in shock.

The proposed deal brought wage discontent among UAL pilots to a head. They staged a summer work slowdown that disrupted schedules, cost UAL's United Airlines tens of millions of dollars, and infuriated passengers. The pilots ended up with big pay raises. But their slowdown has emboldened other unions--both at UAL and other carriers--to threaten similar job actions. And to top it all off, Goodwin, 56, still hasn't gotten the antitrust O.K. needed to clinch the US Airways deal. As a result, UAL shares fell by more than 50% in 2000. That's some record for your first full year as CEO.


As much as it hurts our company, our stocks going down, it's ironic because we would've loved to have our own Dubinsky. That's where a lot of people(mechs)thinks AMFA comes in.

 

[atabuy]

----------------
On 4/16/2003 2:48:39 PM ual747mech wrote:
Jim,
I stand by my statement. This is taken from one of the articles in the past:

But labor isn''t United''s only problem. UAL management can look back on its share of screwups. Two years ago, UAL then-Chief Executive James E. Goodwin cancelled 23,700 flights after pilots staged a work slowdown. Thousands of furious travelers flocked to the competition. Goodwin wound up caving in to the pilots, who along with other union members were demanding catch-up pay for $4.9 billion in past concessions. So immediately after it agreed to raise its pilot payroll by $900 million, United was forced to slash fares in an attempt to win back passengers.
----------------​

ual747mech,
You are living in the past. This is old baggage.
What I would like to see is suggestions on how to make mechanics more valuable to the company. Therefore, making them worth more.
Bringing in a new union will not add value to your net worth if the company cannot make more money.

My advice was to accept the cuts out of BK and at least preserve what little stock you had. Maybe it isn''t worth much right now, but wait until a few years from now.
You won the skirmish by showing the company how you all felt, but lost the war of wills to the company. You always will. They always have the upper hand.

Some of your lost wages are helping to pay the BK lawyers. I guess in hindsight things could have been handled differently.

I agree management is terrible, but they still have the power.

Good luck.

 

[ual747mech]

Jim,

I brought that up to back up what I was saying. We all know that ALPA, with Dubinsky''s blessing, played a role to disrupt operation until management caved in to the pilots demands.
Like I said before, I don''t blame you guyz for doing it, we would''ve done the same thing with the way negotiation or lack thereof was handled by management. I heard there was some of that happening with the mechanics but management was able to put a clamp to it with a restraining order.
Hopefully everybody will learn from the past but I don''t think it will be that simple.