Profits

[jbguppy]

Please cite for me five examples of "multi stop airline" that is any different from me flying United from Kansas City to Seattle...I have to change in Denver. FWIW - I could take a SWA nonstop to Seattle from here. Where are the "multi stops" that you refer to???? You mean like United pilots used to do? And like they WILL do, just as soon as they get two consecutive quarterly profits. How long are you willing to "work for less"?

And you haven't addressed my question about American? How are you gonna compete with them??

Your experience in MCI does not define the airline industry.

No I am not willing to work for less any longer than necessary.

We are and will continue to be a very potent competitor for American.

SWA, less service for the same money...

JBG

SWA - a fuel hedge anomaly.

 

[KCFlyer]

Your experience in MCI does not define the airline industry.

No I am not willing to work for less any longer than necessary.

We are and will continue to be a very potent competitor for American.

SWA, less service for the same money...

JBG

SWA - a fuel hedge anomaly.

You still haven't shown me any "multi stops" that are any more than what I would have on United. Yes...there are a handful of 2 stops...otherwise, it's pretty much just like flying United.

I didn't think you'd be willing to work for less any longer than necessary... but what will you do if your dream of Southwest pay cuts comes to fruition? If they have to cut wages, how will you justify increasing yours?

I guess you misunderstood...American has shown it knows how to compete without screwing over shareholders and creditors..and it seems like they can compete very well that way. Imagine if they had to go into bankruptcy to turn from an 800 pound gorilla into an 8,000 pound gorilla...what with the "improved competitiveness" that bankruptcy allows...

SWA...legroom you don't have to pay extra for.

 

[jbguppy]

Well, JetBlue charges $5 for in-flight movies.
Well, a first class ticket for BNA-LAX tomorrow costs $914, while the economy class ticket costs $309. So, I guess the first class food, drinks, and seat together cost $605 (you may allocate as you like).
They profited because of 9/11?! Southwest's operating income went from $1.022 billion in 2000 to $631 million in 2001 and $418 million in 2002. It sure doesn't sound like the attacks of 9/11 bolstered WN's business; rather, they had a healthy business that was able to remain profitable in spite of the post-9/11 industry depression.

YGBSM, right, SWA exploded due to 9-11 and it's aftermath.
They added jets, service, and routes - flooding the market with capacity hoping to kill major and legacy airlines.

They now have a growth strategy that cannot work, they have shifted strategy in mid stream, cutting and running from their low cost routes to places like DEN and IAD.

Why? because they have to charge more money to pay for higher labor rates. The Low cost leader has become a middle of the pack cost carrier with industry lagging service.

They used to brag about low expectations and good customer relations - now they count on being the alternative that must be used if you can't afford anyone else-except now they don't even offer a savings. They can't deliver on their low cost promise anymore.

Any company that charges the same money for an inferior product is in for some tough times. Add that to high labor cost, an ill advised overly aggressive expansion, and fuel cost advantage that is rapidly dissappearing and you have...

A very interesting future for us all to look forward to.
Every time SWA struggles I smile because they were cheering on this board as we all lost our pensions etc.
Isn't Karma a @#!ch?

JBG

SWA - A fuel hedge anomaly.

 

[mga707]

United sucks.

...and I've given exactly as much backup for that statement as the guppy idiot has for his.

Are ALL UAL pilots royal a-holes, or just the ones that infest this site?

 

[N421LV]

A very interesting future for us all to look forward to.
Every time SWA struggles I smile because they were cheering on this board as we all lost our pensions etc.

Honestly JBG, you're really making a fool of yourself here. You talk as though this airline is some flash-in-the-pan upstart that hardly was on anyone's radar pre-9/11. If you had a true understanding of SWA's history, I don't think you would be so glib. This management team has been making great decisions for 35 yrs, has stayed humble, and underestimates nothing and no competitor. If history is any indicator (and in this case it probably should be), bet against them at your peril.

As for that cheap shot about 'cheering while we lost our pensions, etc'....I think you do a big disservice to the VAST majority of SWA employees when you make such sweeping generalizations. I'm sure that we have a few who'll kick while another is down, but a LOT of us came from bankrupt/defunct airlines and our hearts have gone out to all who continue to suffer in this crazy business. If you want someone to be anry with, might I suggest you start with your own front office?

 

[KCFlyer]

YGBSM, right, SWA exploded due to 9-11 and it's aftermath.
They added jets, service, and routes - flooding the market with capacity hoping to kill major and legacy airlines.

You know, another way to look at it is that they lowered prices to try to get a wary American public to get on planes again. People will do just about anything if the price is right. I've not met any SWA employees who want to "kill" major and legacy airlines

They now have a growth strategy that cannot work, they have shifted strategy in mid stream, cutting and running from their low cost routes to places like DEN and IAD.

Isn't it odd how before they served DEN and IAD folks such as yourself would say "they don't serve DEN and IAD"..And if they announced cities like ABE, many such as yourself would claim they don't serve "real" cities like IAD or DEN.

Why? because they have to charge more money to pay for higher labor rates. The Low cost leader has become a middle of the pack cost carrier with industry lagging service.

First...they didn't have to go thru 3 years of bankruptcy protection to stay afloat. Second - the service they offer on competing routes (don't throw the "fly them to London" argument...a guy going to Nashville could care less if you fly to Timbuktu...he only wants to go to Nashville) is often BETTER than that offered by the major carriers. Indeed...If I buy a seat at anything less than full fare on United, I don't get to sit in econ+, do I? If I buy a 21 day advance fare on Southwest, I get better legroom than the average coach class passenger gets on any other legacy.

They used to brag about low expectations and good customer relations - now they count on being the alternative that must be used if you can't afford anyone else-except now they don't even offer a savings. They can't deliver on their low cost promise anymore.

I don't recall anybody bragging about low expectations. Just you guys. And you're proud of the fact that Southwest often charges MORE than you do? HOws that make you feel after having had to take pay cuts and lose a pension? I'd be kind of pissed.

Any company that charges the same money for an inferior product is in for some tough times. Add that to high labor cost, an ill advised overly aggressive expansion, and fuel cost advantage that is rapidly dissappearing and you have...

I'll offer you the challenge again. I just paid a 21 day advance purchase fare from MCI to SEA on United. What do I get that is superior than what I would get on Southwest. Bear in mind, a nonstop beats channel 9 every time. So please...I'm waiting.

A very interesting future for us all to look forward to.
Every time SWA struggles I smile because they were cheering on this board as we all lost our pensions etc.
Isn't Karma a @#!ch?

Outside of Wnr4life...who was cheering? I've followed this board for YEARS - never saw cheering on the losses suffered by other airline employees. Please - cite some posts.

JBG

 

[magsau]

Outside of Wnr4life...who was cheering? I've followed this board for YEARS - never saw cheering on the losses suffered by other airline employees. Please - cite some posts.

KC you have stated to me on numerous times, "when is your next pay cut, how is your pension" and various other combinations of chearing at the loss of something for the UAL employees. This started before 2000 and has been your mantra for many years.

As jbg says Kharma.

 

[ramper_in_las]

A very interesting future for us all to look forward to.
Every time SWA struggles I smile because they were cheering on this board as we all lost our pensions etc.
Isn't Karma a @#!ch?

You are nothing but a bait thrower. I myself do not wish that kind of demise on anyone. I have gone through it and do not want go through again. The demise of your pension affects our industry as a whole. Let really get honest about it and bring in the politics of it. Our government and our high courts are ultimatly responsible for the legacies losing there retirement pensions.

 

[wnbubbleboy]

Honestly JBG, you're really making a fool of yourself here. You talk as though this airline is some flash-in-the-pan upstart that hardly was on anyone's radar pre-9/11. If you had a true understanding of SWA's history, I don't think you would be so glib. This management team has been making great decisions for 35 yrs, has stayed humble, and underestimates nothing and no competitor. If history is any indicator (and in this case it probably should be), bet against them at your peril.

As for that cheap shot about 'cheering while we lost our pensions, etc'....I think you do a big disservice to the VAST majority of SWA employees when you make such sweeping generalizations. I'm sure that we have a few who'll kick while another is down, but a LOT of us came from bankrupt/defunct airlines and our hearts have gone out to all who continue to suffer in this crazy business. If you want someone to be anry with, might I suggest you start with your own front office?

Well said..

 

[jbguppy]

Well said..

Sorry guys, but you don't get off for kicking the legacies for the last 5 years by saying "it wasn't me who kicked you while you were down"

If that is the case, exit the thread as it doesn't concern you.

All I know is that SWA benefited greatly from the effects of 9-11, and expanded like wild. People on this board were saying that UAL should just go away so we can charge more for tickets. Now you all are outraged that the tide is turning towards the legacies, and the hypocricy of it all greatly amuses me.

If you have anything factual to refute this I am listening,

Not just I love my airline and you can't say these things or I will insult you!! It is laughable.

If all you can do is take offense to my anti-SWA attitude,

Then, I DON'T CARE...

jbg

PS - I know I am on a SWA board, I don't expect you to agree with me, but just because some of you come to the defense of your employer or favorite airline DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.

SWA - a fuel hedge anomaly.

You are nothing but a bait thrower. I myself do not wish that kind of demise on anyone. I have gone through it and do not want go through again. The demise of your pension affects our industry as a whole. Let really get honest about it and bring in the politics of it. Our government and our high courts are ultimatly responsible for the legacies losing there retirement pensions.

Who do you think were some of the biggest lobbyists on Capitol Hill with respect to ATSB, and pension funding legislation?

Answer: many of the airlines competing with UAL and US Air lobbied very hard against ATSB approval and also against allowing a longer deficit reduction timeline for pension plans.

So, You are correct politics played a big part in many airline employees losing their pensions, and many competitor airlines were spending big bucks on lobbyists to ensure they lost them.

JBG

 

[FWAAA]

I don't recall anybody bragging about low expectations. Just you guys. And you're proud of the fact that Southwest often charges MORE than you do? HOws that make you feel after having had to take pay cuts and lose a pension? I'd be kind of pissed.

Exactly. Don't forget the failed ESOP that helped fuel the hatred.

I'm not a Southwest cheerleader - just an occasional WN passenger and longtime shareholder. 34+ years of consistent profits and very little chance that those shares will be canceled in a Ch 11 proceeding. They do what they do very well. Perhaps someday WN will endure a pilot-inspired SFH, but I doubt it. Bankruptcy? Not likely.

 

[sfb]

YGBSM, right, SWA exploded due to 9-11 and it's aftermath.
They added jets, service, and routes - flooding the market with capacity hoping to kill major and legacy airlines.

Wrong. Southwest's capacity increased by roughly 9% in 2001 (largely due to expansion before 9/11) but growth then slowed to 5.5% in 2002 and 4.2% in 2003. By comparison, Southwest grew 13.3% in 2000 and 11.1% in 1999. They added the jets they were contractually obligated to take from Boeing, but they added no new cities (aside from already-planned ORF in October 2001) until May 2004.

They now have a growth strategy that cannot work, they have shifted strategy in mid stream, cutting and running from their low cost routes to places like DEN and IAD.

Huh, I guess that explains why their DEN-SLC walkup fare of $109 is less than the average DEN-SLC fare was before they entered the market. Yup, they've got to charge high fares out of DEN to make money. And I sure see them abandoning markets like LAS, PHX, MDW, BWI, MCO, OAK, TPA, etc. for DEN and IAD, right?

Why? because they have to charge more money to pay for higher labor rates. The Low cost leader has become a middle of the pack cost carrier with industry lagging service.

Is that why Southwest scored higher than United in every single metric in J.D. Power's 2006 Airline Satisfaction Index?

They used to brag about low expectations and good customer relations - now they count on being the alternative that must be used if you can't afford anyone else-except now they don't even offer a savings. They can't deliver on their low cost promise anymore.

Is THAT why Southwest carries over twice as many O&D passengers between OAK & LAX as United carries between SFO & LAX? Or why WN has leading market share between Chicago & St. Louis or Chicago & Pittsburgh or Chicago & Cleveland?

Any company that charges the same money for an inferior product is in for some tough times. Add that to high labor cost, an ill advised overly aggressive expansion, and fuel cost advantage that is rapidly dissappearing and you have...

The problem is, for most passengers, the network carriers don't offer a superior product. Economy Minus on United offers less legroom than Southwest. On shorter routes, the network carriers generally offer less in amenities than Southwest.

Isn't Karma a @#!ch?

Heck yeah! Seems like karma came around and bit you right on the @$$ for the Summer from Hell, huh?

 

[ramper_in_las]

So, You are correct politics played a big part in many airline employees losing their pensions, and many competitor airlines were spending big bucks on lobbyists to ensure they lost them.

JBG

all I have to say is "WOW is he in Left field?"

 

[jimntx]

I love it when people start predicting the death of SWA just because they made less of a profit quarter over quarter. In this business a profit is still a profit regardless of size. Besides, one quarter does NOT a trend make.

SWA is a gorgeously run airline with dedicated and loyal employees. Herb Kelleher saw a need and filled it. Evidently that same need is still around lo these many years later.

Now, as an AA employee, I can't in all good conscience say that SWA is my favorite airline, but YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH SUCCESS. My prediction for the next quarter...

SW will make some adjustments in their operation, and a profit will be forthcoming in the next quarter. Now, how many consecutive profitable quarters will that make?

Lord knows, my airline can't even come close in that department.

 

[jbguppy]

I love it when people start predicting the death of SWA just because they made less of a profit quarter over quarter. In this business a profit is still a profit regardless of size. Besides, one quarter does NOT a trend make.

SWA is a gorgeously run airline with dedicated and loyal employees. Herb Kelleher saw a need and filled it. Evidently that same need is still around lo these many years later.

Now, as an AA employee, I can't in all good conscience say that SWA is my favorite airline, but YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH SUCCESS. My prediction for the next quarter...

SW will make some adjustments in their operation, and a profit will be forthcoming in the next quarter. Now, how many consecutive profitable quarters will that make?

Lord knows, my airline can't even come close in that department.

Sorry,
no one is predicting SWA will fail or die as a company. They will just not enjoy the superior economics compared to others that they have through their fuel hedge.

Now that you have a sycophant from AMR joining the fray I will leave to your illusions of grandeur.

Remember this, SWA is on the decline.

Out