Prater Speaks

[ussnark]

The ALPA merger policy was followed to the letter.

Many big time lawyers think otherwise, but then, what is their opinion compared to some HP moronic pilot. IANAL, but, when the #1 NMB lawyer is willing to toss his free services into the mix it seems the HP guys might be paying quite a bit in the way of assessments to "defend" a lost cause.

Go for it boys, it will only serve to enhance the lifestyle of a few of your lawyers. Glass must be experiencing multiple orgasms by now........ Good show, HP.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Dear US Airways Pilot,

The aaapilots4fairness want to thank you for your support on the yahoo group's web board. This board is too unwieldy for our use and we have moved the discussions to www.decertifyalpa.com.

This site will become the home if this movement to remove ALPA as our collective bargaining agent and restore the futures of many pilots will suffer under the misguided ALPA merger policy. The list of the problems inherent in ALPA and also in the bylaws which allow three people to go into the bargaining room with the company and come out with some agreement that is totally unacceptable to the pilot group, is just too long to mention. We will not dwell on ALPA's past failures but only on what we can achieve in the future.

To bring you up to date we have had conversations with several different law firms concerning the Nicolau award and how we can deal with it. All the lawyers agree that a direct attack on the award is a loser and that the MEC's attack via the Washington DC law firm they have hired is a real long shot. Much greater than 1000 to 1 said one lawyer. Surprisingly, all three firms agree that if ALPA is not on the property and a new contract is in effect then the Nicolau award is not applicable. It simply goes away and a new seniority list must be negotiated as part of the new contract. Some feel that our survivorship language is strong enough in itself to guarantee a date of hire list; other lawyers say that the question is subject to negotiation but they all agree that ALPA must be gone to renegotiate or impose a change in the seniority list.

The aaapilots4fairness want to give our pilots a chance to regain their future in an airline where the policies of the union help and not hinder or career. To do this we will need your help and support.

We will soon start a Representational Election campaign. It is called a representational election campaign because under the National Mediation Board rules there is no decertification procedure. We don't decertify APLA we replace them with a new bargaining agent. The rules of this procedure are spelled out bye the NMB. By the way some people have been posting items taken from NLRB law and this is incorrect. The National Labor Relations Board governs all bargaining activity except Railroads and Airlines. Railway Labor Disputes including agents is controlled by the NMB and their procedures.

NMB procedures will require that we get a "showing of interest" to call an election. The "showing of interest" is typically accomplished by a card count. A card or paper containing a clear indication of the employee's desire to be represented by the new union and that is signed and dated in his own handwriting is the normal method. When we have 50%+1 of the eligible pilots' cards we can call the NMB in for an investigation. The investigator reviews the card count and if he finds the cards to be correct and not fraudulent and the proper employees in craft and class are signed then he will call an election. Signatures are compared with those on file with the company and if the card count is correct and above the required threshold and will be called. The election is run and tallied by the NMB and the winner becomes the new bargaining agent.

The question of craft and class applies more to railroads than our situation. We have only full time pilots so that decision is already made. The America West pilot group will most likely be included in the required number of cards so we have to take that into account. The last given west count was 1893 and it will be slightly lower than that now. Our current count is about 2628 however many of our furloughed pilots can sign cards. The threshold for signing cards and voting are two different matters. A furloughed pilots who intends to return and has " a reasonable expectation of returning to work" may sign a card although that person if he is not actively working cannot vote in the election.

If you use a conservative estimate of our East count to sign cards at 3000 and a west count of 1893 then the total count is 4893. This will require 2447 to call an election but it will only take 1894 to outvote the west in the election. Once an election is called it takes only a majority of the majority to win. This means that if greater than 50%+1 vote in the election than just the majority off those voting will determine the election. The required vote to out vote the west is 1893 +1, providing all East pilots vote for new representation and all west pilots vote ALPA. Once a new bargaining agent is in place there are no changes to the current agreement at all the next contract is simply bargained by the new agent.

We feel that this is a tall but very do-able project. Soon you will receive a "showing of interest" card in the mail. We invite you to complete it and send this pre-paid card in. It doesn't elect anyone, it merely gives you a choice. If we call an election you will be able to choose between new representation or ALPA. We will have to answer your questions and earn your vote by having a competent team in place to represent our pilots. We hope that the future will prove that we can earn your vote and allow you to have a say in the future of this profession and our company.

So remember please go to www.decertifyalpa.com to find out more information and use the forum and see the postings. All information will be available to those who provide the registration information on the web site. We hope to see you all over on the new board.

 

[Cactus737]

The decert will never happen - it's just more rhetoric that will fail to materialize into anything. Can anybody think of one threat that the East has been able to deliver on recently? Not I.

 

[hp_fa]

Didn't this chippy little note also get posted by the same poster in a topic of it's own?

 

[Junebug172]

"In regard to voting on representation, all furloughees and ALPA members in bad standing could vote on who they would want to represent thme. Thus, there would be over 4,000 US Airways pilots eligible to vote in a representational election."

Its not going to happen. You don't have and will never get the top 2000 to decertify.

The US Airways East pilots have set up a website to remove ALPA and have used different resources to get email addresses and phone numbers for every East pilot, who can be individually contacted in regard to decertifying ALPA and replacing ALPA with another union.


The US Airways East pilots also set up a website to get DOH for the integration. So much for websites.


In addition, the Washington-based Labor Law firm of Baptiste & Wilder has been retained by the East pilots to advise the pilots on how to proceed as a part of ALPA or after the decertification process begins, if necessary.

You forgot to add the part about where they suck you dry of all your money and then have little to show you for it.

If there is not an acceptable solution to the Nicolau Award such as an improvement of East pay/vacation to West rates, the East pilots living under the remainder or LOA 93, and the two pilot group remaining separate to preserve their career expectations then expect the decertification process to begin.


What does the Nicolau award have to do with an improvement in pay and vacations?!?! And you may as well keep that decertification process going because Praters video pretty much said that the list is final and binding.

The East pilots have put in place a plan to remove ALPA andh most of the building blocks in place to begin the process.

And then what. No other union will touch you. The Teamster flat out said "no." And the list will be carried over to whatever CBA ends up on the property.

Good luck with your dream, it'll be fun watching you try.

And as for your MEC being in lock-step with each other, I was wondering why Stephan berated the C41 reps for the crap they were putting out about Butkovic. And speaking of Butkovic, why is he still on the JNC? It though C41 wanted him out? And even more so, why are you guys still participating in the JNC? I though you were going to pull out?

Hmmmm.

 

[AWA320]

"In regard to voting on representation, all furloughees and ALPA members in bad standing could vote on who they would want to represent thme. Thus, there would be over 4,000 US Airways pilots eligible to vote in a representational election."

Its not going to happen. You don't have and will never get the top 2000 to decertify.

The US Airways East pilots have set up a website to remove ALPA and have used different resources to get email addresses and phone numbers for every East pilot, who can be individually contacted in regard to decertifying ALPA and replacing ALPA with another union.


The US Airways East pilots also set up a website to get DOH for the integration. So much for websites.
In addition, the Washington-based Labor Law firm of Baptiste & Wilder has been retained by the East pilots to advise the pilots on how to proceed as a part of ALPA or after the decertification process begins, if necessary.

You forgot to add the part about where they suck you dry of all your money and the have little to show you for it.

If there is not an acceptable solution to the Nicolau Award such as an improvement of East pay/vacation to West rates, the East pilots living under the remainder or LOA 93, and the two pilot group remaining separate to preserve their career expectations then expect the decertification process to begin.


What does the Nicolau award have to do with an improvement in pay and vacations?!?! And you may as well keep that decertification process going because Praters video pretty much said that the list is final and binding.

The East pilots have put in place a plan to remove ALPA andh most of the building blocks in place to begin the process.

And then what. No other union will touch you. The Teamster flat out said "no." And the list will be carried over to what CBA ends up on the property.

Good luck with your dream, it'll be fun watching you try.

And as for your MEC being in lock-step with each other, I was wondering why Stephan berated the C41 reps for the crap they were putting out about Butkovic. And speaking of Butkovic, why is he still on the JNC? It though C41 wanted him out? And even more so, why are you guys still participating in the JNC? I though you were going to pull out?

Hmmmm.

Hahahahahahaha,

You really put that all in place, thanks! I guess so much for lock step huh? Some of them really believe that they can just up and get out of an award. If we continue to play our cards right these idiots will be paying assessments for the rest of their lives to cover the judgement they are going to lose to the west.

There are no depths to which these people will sink!!!

 

[USA320Pilot]

Two points:

If the Nicolau Award is not thrown out and if the East pilots action to throw ALPA off of the East and West property has no merit...then why are the West pilots so active on this board?

Furthermore, all the East pilots have to do to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented is to not agree to a joint contract.

Furthermore, negotiations have now started between the East pilots and company for pay parity, which is something the West pilots should support because it will help the entire profession improve pilot wages.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Junebug172]

If the Nicolau Award is not thrown out and if the East pilots action to throw ALPA off of the East and West property has no merit...then why are the West pilots so active on this board?

Damn, you got us. Your logic has made us rethink our position and we now believe you have a fighting chance so we try to demoralize you.

NOT!

Furthermore, all the East pilots have to do to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented is to not agree to a joint contract.

Ya, that's brilliant. And you live under LOA 93 for a few more years while chasing the fantasy of equal work equal pay sans joint contract.

That kills me. All of a sudden, everyone wants out of LOA 93. Where did all the tough guys go?

Furthermore, negotiations have now started between the East pilots and company for pay parity, which is something the West pilots should support because it will help the entire profession improve pilot wages.

Do you actually type this stuff with a straight face?!?!! Is this what you need to make it through your day? I've seen people grasp at straws, but this is ridiculous, no ludicrous.

Keep it coming. You're killing me.

 

[Bear96]

If the Nicolau Award is not thrown out and if the East pilots action to throw ALPA off of the East and West property has no merit...then why are the West pilots so active on this board?

By the same logic . . .

If you position is so sound, why are YOU so active on this board?

 

[AWA320]

Two points:

If the Nicolau Award is not thrown out and if the East pilots action to throw ALPA off of the East and West property has no merit...then why are the West pilots so active on this board? Because I have such a good time playing with you guys on a absolutly losing effort...

Furthermore, all the East pilots have to do to prevent the Nicolau Award from being implemented is to not agree to a joint contract. True, then stop begging the company for more money to catch up to the west if LOA 93 is so good!

Furthermore, negotiations have now started between the East pilots and company for pay parity, which is something the West pilots should support because it will help the entire profession improve pilot wages.

Regards,

So we should get on board AGAIN to aid the east in their efforts to gain something? Yeah sign me up as you folks have been so goot to us in the west. I can't wait to help you guys AGAIN!!

I agree with Parker 1000%, you want parity get on with the contract!! No contract no parity!!! Not one west pilot with aid you in your continued quest to slip us the weenie! Not one west pilot will contribute a penny to some new union and with over 1800 non dues paying members try and get an agency shop clause with that. Stop lying to your membership USA, teamsters want zip to do with you or this mess so your only hope is in house and you don't have the money to provide a fraction of what ALPA provides. Now money for ALPA aero medical, no money for the life ins, no money for ALPA legal, no money for accident help. Give up this non sense and get your head on right!!! A contract is the only way to heal this wound and you are letting precious time slip away.

USA320Pilot

 

[exB717Flyer]

The TWA pilots abrogated their seniority right based upon ALPA council and the fear that AA would just liquidate the TWA assets.

That's the AA version of events (the victors get to write the history). I'm ex-TWA. The asset sale to AA was going to happen one way or another. If we hadn't voluntarily given up our successorship rights AA would've had the judge abrogate our entire contract. That's what was scaring us more than anything.

Many TWA pilots feel they were sold down the river by ALPA because ALPA didn't want to enter into a hostile seniority fight with the APA at the same time they were trying to court the APA to rejoin ALPA.

This is true, but one must delve a little deeper into ALPA's motivation. One is money. 10,000 new highly-paid AA pilots joining ALPA was worth a lot more than 2300 TWAers. The other motivation is that the Biggies didn't want any bad precedents set. TWA was financially weak and UAL/DAL/NWA wanted to make sure all other mergers would heavily favor the strong.

So fast-fowarding to today one must consider the EC's motivation. By my logic they should favor the strong, which in this case would be AWA. Thus far they haven't but it could just be a delay due to a new President who doesn't want to make a tough decision too quickly. Of course it's also in the EC's best interest to have AWA/AAA come to a consensus but since that seems unlikely they really don't have anywhere to go beyond the ALPA Bylaws and behind-the-door pressure tactics (which they're already using).

The Easties think ALPA Merger Policy wasn't followed but despite having lawyers they pay to tell them otherwise a legal challenge would be a big, black hole. I don't believe their bluster-talk about dumping ALPA or buring the company down. That leaves them with some harsh reality: it's in their best interest to accept the Nic Award and try to negotiate with the AWA MEC as equals through the JNC rather than through strong-arm tactics and extortion. Their careers weren't destroyed by AWA or Nicolau but by USAirways. That's reality.

 

[aquagreen73s]

First off they would simply replace the current representation, not be without it. Secondly, what do you think Chris Beebe's motivation is? It wouldn't be that cush National Officer salary and all the bennies that would go away if US Airway's left ALPA, now would it?

Beebe's job has nothing to do with whether East stays in the ALPA fold, just like J. Randolph Babbitt's tenure as ALPA's president was not predicated on him working for an airline still in the ALPA fold:

J. Randolph Babbitt is president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a post he has held since Jan. 1, 1991. Born in Coral Gables, Fla., June 9, 1946, Babbitt was elected AFL-CIO vice president on Oct. 26, 1995. He currently serves as vice president of the AFL-CIO Transportation Trades Department and chairman of the Railway Labor Act Committee.

Before becoming ALPA president, Babbitt for six years served as the union's executive administrator. A former Eastern Airlines pilot, he served for a number of years representing all 4,000 Eastern pilots for ALPA, and chaired ALPA's National Collective Bargaining Committee, Negotiator's Conference and Presidential Committee on Labor Standards.

 

[hp_fa]

If the Nicolau Award is not thrown out and if the East pilots action to throw ALPA off of the East and West property has no merit...then why are the West pilots so active on this board?

Because there no longer is an AWA board on US Aviation.

 

[Phoenix]

Because there no longer is an AWA board...