Pilots On Furlough

[goingboeing]

Listen, you don't need to throw out the, "IF you knew anything about an airline" line to me. Southwest if profitable because they have fewer people doing the same jobs than AA. Fact is that AA could turn planes in less than 30 minutes if the FA would clean the planes like at Southwest. Unionized lost time at AA is between 5 and 10 percent, meaning sick time and other paid leave. For salaried employees its probably below one. Why? Because from a union stand point when people are out sick, the company has to pay another union worker to work. DFW has ramp workers sitting around all day, watching while other crews work flights, unwilling to help them.

By the way, I'm not sure about this but its hard for me to believe that the 3 different generations of 737 southwest flies don't use at least some different parts. I would think a lot of the parts would be different.

Yeah,They may operate 3 different types of B-737 but a lot[not all] of the systems and airframe components are the same.

AA has to stock parts for 7 different types of AIRCRAFT[soon to be 6 when the last F-100 is retired] It wasn't that long ago that it was 11 different fleet types.

We have different configurations within a fleet type such as the MD80 and B-757.
This causes us to have double and triple the amount of parts on hand to meet effectivity requirements.[example B-757 has 2 different types of PSU's instead of one for standardization]

We have MD80 with different types of cockpits.Imagine what this does for spare avionics and parts inventories.

These types of decisions in A/C purchases costs AA tons of extra money.

And as previously mentioned SWA is the most unionized airline in the airline business.

If unions were the problem Delta would be making tons of money because they are the most non-unionized airline of all the majors.

AA management has made too many stupid decisions for us to recover from such as buying TWA.The unionized employees did not buy TWA.

Just face it,AA management is incompetent and SWA management makes the correct decisions for today's airline market[ They had enough sense to hedge jet fuel prices far enough in advance to weather the high prices. The unions at AA did not make this decision, AA management did.

Read yahoo airline news and you would be better informed on what SWA is paying for fuel verses what AA is paying for fuel.
Just on jet fuel price differences alone we cannot compete with SWA.

 

[Winglet]

SWA labor costs are 41% . . . . more than anyone other than Delta (who is one of the lowest unionized). And 10-15% more than other LCCs. What's the difference? SW managers know how to run an airline, can schedule their people efficiently, dont' have 50 VPs and a bloated managment staff sucking at the tit, and a CEO that can lead effectively.

 

[AirLUVer]

With the advent of 911 and the TSA, Southwest had to start printing bording passes.

Compare WN's number of employees and compare to Labor cost and you will find the average employee makes as much if not more than the employees of other airlines.

Northwest is selling their wholely owned commuter to MAKE money. Continental did the same thing a few years ago and is still reaping the rewards from that, Also NW will keep controlling ownership of Pinnacle.

AA did not have the FUNDS to hedge, If you don't realize it, Hedging fuel means buying your fuel ahead of time, PREPAYING, kinda like those prepaid credit cards, you only get as much as you put into it, and if you dont' have anything to put into it, you don't get any.

 

[goingboeing]

My point exactly! AA did not have the money to prepay for fuel because they spent it buying TWA.

Regardless of the reasons why the facts are still the same. SWA[LUV] is getting their fuel a considerable amount cheaper thn AA and that alone puts us at a tremendous disadvantage.

 

[AirLUVer]

AA bought TWA, because United was close to purchasing USAir. Hindsight is 20/20. If the people that made the decision KNEW that the DOT/DOJ wasn't going to approve the UA/U merger, they wouldn't have courted every airline in the country for one to merge with themselves.

 

[C5 Driver]

I know that I'm going to catch alot of heat for this, but the only solution that I've heard of that is going to fix the incompetence of our management leadership, the eagle problem, the code sharing problem, the total lack of trust that the employees have for management and a host of other problems that plague AA is the ESOP proposal that www.buyitfixit.org has for the employees of AA. Yes I can hear you already- "the last thing that I want to do is own and airline", but with the givebacks that we have already given the company we could have bought it when the stock was at less than $2.00 a share several times over. Do I think that the stock will drop that low again? Yes I do. Do I think that AA is going to come after us AGAIN and again for more givebacks to bail them out of stupid decisions that have been listed on these boards time after time? Yes I do. Do I think that the unions should be actively investigating this option? Yes I do. Why? Because unlike management that can go to another airline to wreak havock, in this current airline job market most of the skilled labor employees at AA are married to it, and I believe that this marriage will last much much longer if we truely feel like we have a stake in it's outcome. For those of you that haven't taken the time to read through the proposal please do so. It's not a United Airlines esop proposal with the problems that they ran into. Am I part of that group? No I'm not, but it's the only thing that I've seen that makes any long-term sense to the troubles that we face at AA. For those of you that continually post "well if you don't like it at AA got work somewhere else" I say that after investing a large part of your working life at a company it's hard to give up that bond. I believe that that bond is worth keeping, worth fighting for and making stronger while we can, instead of sitting around and letting it be totally destroyed by management, as history has showed that management has done time after time with countless other airlines that are now distant memories. I challenge anyone to come up with something better than the ESOP proposal to fix with one swoop most of what ails us at AA. Is it going to be painless? No. Is it going to cost a fraction of your retirement fund or savings? Yes, but if we don't come up with a solution you might not have a job to come to or a retirement to worry about... just ask US Air guys.

 

[jimntx]

Yes, but if we don't come up with a solution you might not have a job to come to or a retirement to worry about... just ask US Air guys.

I think I would rather play Dr. Phil and go to the UAL employees and ask,
"How's that [employee ownership] working for you?"

 

[C5 Driver]

Like I said on my post, this is not the UAL ESOP proposal, too bad that you didn't take the time to review it before posting a reply.

 

[HGIEFOswitch]

I highly doubt AMR spent 700 million out of a "fuel trust fund" to buy TWA. Most of the money spent on TWA was returned w/ the sale of Worldspan. The almost 4 billion lost over the last 3 years is due to a mutiple of factors. Lets stick to the facts.

 

[planemech669]

..........
By the way, I'm not sure about this but its hard for me to believe that the 3 different generations of 737 southwest flies don't use at least some different parts. I would think a lot of the parts would be different.

Misunderstanding this one little concept is the EXACT reason why the people that run an airline need to be those that have a clear working knowledge of the equipment that the business uses. Bankers and executives with MBAs and Docterates in business don't know squat about why or how a plane works or what it takes to keep it flying, yet those are the people that make the desicions on whether or not we get to purchase the parts to make air travel safe. Would you ask your accountant to decide whether or not you need chemotherapy to cure the cancer in your body?

By the way the 90% commonallity between subtypes in the 737 family means that with each new subtype an airline purchases, you only have approximatly a 10% increase in the number of new parts needed for your spares inventory vs. a 100% new inventory every time you aquire a new model aircraft.

You do the math;
1 fleet with 3 subtype. 1 master inventory with 3 minor ones.
6 fleets with 14 subtypes. 6 master inventories with 14 minor ones.
(I've grossly simplified it here to give you the jist of the idea..)

AA could get down to SWAs CASM IF there were one aircraft type around that would profitably run on all it's routes. Maybe even lower.

 

[planemech669]

SWA labor costs are 41% . . . . more than anyone other than Delta (who is one of the lowest unionized). And 10-15% more than other LCCs. What's the difference? SW managers know how to run an airline, can schedule their people efficiently, dont' have 50 VPs and a bloated managment staff sucking at the tit, and a CEO that can lead effectively.

At Delta the only workgroup that is uionized are the pilots. As far as I know, they are the only crybabies that feel the need for one.

 

[FWAAA]

My point exactly! AA did not have the money to prepay for fuel because they spent it buying TWA.

Regardless of the reasons why the facts are still the same. SWA[LUV] is getting their fuel a considerable amount cheaper thn AA and that alone puts us at a tremendous disadvantage.

Uh huh.

If AA had not spent billions on new 777s and 738s and just kept its DC-10s and MD-11s, AA would have lots of extra money for fuel.

If AA had not distributed over a billion dollars in profit sharing to rank and file employees in the late 1990s, AA would have lots of extra money for fuel.

If oil were currently selling for $16/bbl instead of $41, the whole world would call WN management stupid and AMR management genius. Hindsight is awful clear.

 

[Winglet]

"At Delta the only workgroup that is uionized are the pilots. As far as I know, they are the only crybabies that feel the need for one. "

And yet Delta has the highest employee costs.

 

[Mach85ER]

"1. Just because you work on or fly an airplane doesn't mean you know how to run an airline."

 

[L1011Ret]

Indeed, there are a lot of "managers" who have the answers to AAs predicaments. But strangely enough the predicaments AA finds itself in are similar if not the same for all legacy carriers. It is more about the structure of the industry than about any set of executives. If I had any thoughts about what is wrong with AA I would fault their relationships with unions and employees. Arpey is attempting to remendy what Time magazine called the airline with the angriest employees with his "marriage" counselors. As for these predicaments being caused by the purchase of TWA, that is largely false. As someone above as pointed out, if it were not for 9/11, the economic depression we are recovering from and the high price of oil, the whole story would look appreciably different.