Ok, Let''s suppose......
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
OP
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #3
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
There''s no spin. If we approve the TA and AA files BK odds are fair that there will be no further concessions. If the companys situation gets really bad after BK they could very well "double dip" and come back for more. If they declare BK after we reject the TA we could be in big trouble. If the court finds that AA has met its requirements under BK law they will be allowed to dismiss our entire contract and implement whatever they wish. No grivances, seniority, bump rights, no more payscale, pay set idividually. But we still could have an AMFA election!! Im sure that will cure all our problems!
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
There are four possibilities:
1) The T/A''s are rejected, and AA automatically files bankruptcy. See consequesnces as described above.
2) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA does not declare bankruptcy.
3) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA declared a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy to renegotiate lease rates on aircraft, gates, and things like vendor contracts, but does not come back after labor.
4) The T/A''s are accepted and AA declares bankruptcy, and comes back after the unions for more, as the management at USAir did.
I still think that options #1 or #3 are the most likely.
The employees will be screwed the worst under options #1 and #4. I really don''t think if the T/A''s are approved, AA will come back after the employees for more. I could be wrong. But I would much rather go into bankruptcy with at least some attempt at protections in place (the 1113 letters) than no protection at all. It just makes sense.
TANSTAAFL
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
What spin?On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
Carty has already stated that AMR could file bankruptcy even with ratification. The only spin I can see is if you give Carty his concessions up front.
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:58:12 AM AAmech wrote:
There''s no spin. If we approve the TA and AA files BK odds are fair that there will be no further concessions. If the companys situation gets really bad after BK they could very well "double dip" and come back for more. If they declare BK after we reject the TA we could be in big trouble. If the court finds that AA has met its requirements under BK law they will be allowed to dismiss our entire contract and implement whatever they wish. No grivances, seniority, bump rights, no more payscale, pay set idividually. But we still could have an AMFA election!! Im sure that will cure all our problems!
----------------
How further you figure they can go before everyone leaves for other industry?On 4/13/2003 10:58:12 AM AAmech wrote:
There''s no spin. If we approve the TA and AA files BK odds are fair that there will be no further concessions. If the companys situation gets really bad after BK they could very well "double dip" and come back for more. If they declare BK after we reject the TA we could be in big trouble. If the court finds that AA has met its requirements under BK law they will be allowed to dismiss our entire contract and implement whatever they wish. No grivances, seniority, bump rights, no more payscale, pay set idividually. But we still could have an AMFA election!! Im sure that will cure all our problems!
----------------
And non-union auto-mechanic is making far more than your TWU two hours pay is getting you.
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:58:12 AM AAmech wrote:
There''s no spin. If we approve the TA and AA files BK odds are fair that there will be no further concessions. If the companys situation gets really bad after BK they could very well "double dip" and come back for more. If they declare BK after we reject the TA we could be in big trouble. If the court finds that AA has met its requirements under BK law they will be allowed to dismiss our entire contract and implement whatever they wish. No grivances, seniority, bump rights, no more payscale, pay set idividually. But we still could have an AMFA election!! Im sure that will cure all our problems!
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:58:12 AM AAmech wrote:
There''s no spin. If we approve the TA and AA files BK odds are fair that there will be no further concessions. If the companys situation gets really bad after BK they could very well "double dip" and come back for more. If they declare BK after we reject the TA we could be in big trouble. If the court finds that AA has met its requirements under BK law they will be allowed to dismiss our entire contract and implement whatever they wish. No grivances, seniority, bump rights, no more payscale, pay set idividually. But we still could have an AMFA election!! Im sure that will cure all our problems!
----------------
Well one thing that you are right about is that the company would probably not get any more in BK then we are set to giving them.
Why would the judge abrogate our current agreement in BK? Our contract gives the company a lot more than our competitors; OSMs, 8.5 hr day, cross utilization, fleet service push backs and deicing, subcontracting such as Tanks R Us, Rockwell Collins and Matsushita, other airlines working in AA hangars and the ramp. What terms of our agreement could be considered onerous? With all the advantages AA has, and what they are asking for now, and the fact that we offered a 1 year 25% cut which they rejected, I think it would be easy to show good cause for rejection of the Vermont Plan. That is if we had the right people argueing our case.
----------------
On 4/13/2003 11:13:22 AM WXGuesser wrote:
There are four possibilities:
1) The T/A''s are rejected, and AA automatically files bankruptcy. See consequesnces as described above.
2) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA does not declare bankruptcy.
3) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA declared a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy to renegotiate lease rates on aircraft, gates, and things like vendor contracts, but does not come back after labor.
4) The T/A''s are accepted and AA declares bankruptcy, and comes back after the unions for more, as the management at USAir did.
I still think that options #1 or #3 are the most likely.
The employees will be screwed the worst under options #1 and #4. I really don''t think if the T/A''s are approved, AA will come back after the employees for more. I could be wrong. But I would much rather go into bankruptcy with at least some attempt at protections in place (the 1113 letters) than no protection at all. It just makes sense.
TANSTAAFL
----------------
On 4/13/2003 11:13:22 AM WXGuesser wrote:
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:13:32 AM Hopeful wrote:
Ok, let''s suppose that we will fare worse in bankruptcy. Now, let''s also suppose that all the work groups vote YES for the T/A''s. Wednesday we find ourselves with new labor agreements, loss of pay and benefits AND AA STILL FILES BANKRUPTCY! WHAT WILL THE SPIN BE THEN?
----------------
There are four possibilities:
1) The T/A''s are rejected, and AA automatically files bankruptcy. See consequesnces as described above.
2) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA does not declare bankruptcy.
3) The T/A''s are accepted, and AA declared a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy to renegotiate lease rates on aircraft, gates, and things like vendor contracts, but does not come back after labor.
4) The T/A''s are accepted and AA declares bankruptcy, and comes back after the unions for more, as the management at USAir did.
I still think that options #1 or #3 are the most likely.
The employees will be screwed the worst under options #1 and #4. I really don''t think if the T/A''s are approved, AA will come back after the employees for more. I could be wrong. But I would much rather go into bankruptcy with at least some attempt at protections in place (the 1113 letters) than no protection at all. It just makes sense.
TANSTAAFL
----------------
There are a lot more possibilities than that.
What makes you think that AA will get everything it wants from Labor in BK court? What makes you think that the company will remain viable if they get this contract through? Do you have any idea of the impact this agreement is going to have on the line for the next six years? Where is most of the money generated? American cant make money if the line guys are so pissed off that they can not focus on fixing airplanes.
----------------
On 4/13/2003 1:15:56 PM Bob Owens wrote:
There are a lot more possibilities than that.
What makes you think that AA will get everything it wants from Labor in BK court? What makes you think that the company will remain viable if they get this contract through? Do you have any idea of the impact this agreement is going to have on the line for the next six years? Where is most of the money generated? American cant make money if the line guys are so pissed off that they can not focus on fixing airplanes.
----------------
On 4/13/2003 1:15:56 PM Bob Owens wrote:
There are a lot more possibilities than that.
What makes you think that AA will get everything it wants from Labor in BK court? What makes you think that the company will remain viable if they get this contract through? Do you have any idea of the impact this agreement is going to have on the line for the next six years? Where is most of the money generated? American cant make money if the line guys are so pissed off that they can not focus on fixing airplanes.
----------------
I''ll try to answer your questions in order:
1) The DIP financiers will demand it, otherwise, it''s likely Chapter 7 instead of 11.
2)It''s a risk, but I believe the company will have a better chance to survive if they reduce the labor costs, combined with the other cost reductions that have already been made. I still also believe that it will be better for the employees if this is done outside of bankruptcy than in. In bankruptcy, a lot of things we would not be giving up under this T/A have the potential of going away. Like pensions, system protection, station protection. You want to see how bad they can break the union? Go into BK.
3) No, I don''t. But I do believe people will still have jobs if it passes that will not if it does not.
4) From the passengers. Revenue is preserved by all the workers on the ground and in the air, but it still comes from the passengers.
5)Anger fades. If someone cannot concentrate on their job because of their anger, then there are programs available for therapy and counseling.
TANSTAAFL
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 786
- 0
----------------
On 4/13/2003 1:09:09 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Why would the judge abrogate our current agreement in BK?
----------------
On 4/13/2003 1:09:09 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Why would the judge abrogate our current agreement in BK?
----------------
Because he has to either accept it as is or arbrogate it entirely. This isn''t a multiple choice ruling.
You say the current contracts are competitive, others say they aren''t.
It will all boil down to the math...
The judge will decide whose math is more realistic, and rule accordingly.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
----------------
On 4/14/2003 6:24:53 AM Hopeful wrote:
The judge did not abbrogate the contracts at UAL despite the management''s plea that they do.
----------------
On 4/14/2003 6:24:53 AM Hopeful wrote:
The judge did not abbrogate the contracts at UAL despite the management''s plea that they do.
----------------
Not true. The company moved forward with the 1113 procedings until we came to tentative agreements. Once the T/A''s came out, the company withdrew their request for contract abbrogation.
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 786
- 0
Sure they kept their sick time, but have you seen what the IAM also agreed to?
1) Closing IND and OAK overhaul facilities
2) Unlimited outsourcing of heavy maintenance
3) Outsourcing up to 20% of all non-heavy maintenance (determined by budget minus heavy maintenance expenses)
4) Outsourcing beyond 20% if remaining facilities are being fully utilized
5) Allowing any IAM represented employee to perform pushbacks and fueling. Since agents are also IAM, that appears to allow an agent to do R/D and fueling.
6) Employee to pay 20% of cost for health insurance, with 7% cap on annual increases
So sure, they kept some things like sick time. But they've eliminated several thousand positions in exchange for keeping that...
Fact, fact, fact...
1) Closing IND and OAK overhaul facilities
2) Unlimited outsourcing of heavy maintenance
3) Outsourcing up to 20% of all non-heavy maintenance (determined by budget minus heavy maintenance expenses)
4) Outsourcing beyond 20% if remaining facilities are being fully utilized
5) Allowing any IAM represented employee to perform pushbacks and fueling. Since agents are also IAM, that appears to allow an agent to do R/D and fueling.
6) Employee to pay 20% of cost for health insurance, with 7% cap on annual increases
So sure, they kept some things like sick time. But they've eliminated several thousand positions in exchange for keeping that...
Fact, fact, fact...
