NYT Article

[corl737]

Please give me concrete numbers so we can have a rational discussion, and see if maybe you're just uninformed on what the real salary is for most airline pilots.

I commute from Sacramento to Chicago. I understand the impact of cost of living, time away from base, duty period regulations, and the myriad of other factors you brought up. You'll likely call me names for taking this position but you have to agree that there is no single "concrete" number to put on salary to determine it's acceptability because it's 100% subjective.

Pilots are individuals (and thus the reason I didn't agree with Jeff's sweeping categorization of legacy pilots). Let me give you a few examples of "true life stories":
1) My friend from the Navy flight school who was an English-major and qualified for, and became, an airline pilot by virtue of his training is enjoying career earnings far greater than his college-major expectations would have predicted.
2) My friend who completed law school and is certified by the Bar but enjoyed flying is undoubtedly earning less as an airline pilot than he could as a practicing lawyer.
3) My "gotta be an airline pilot" buddy is exactly in line with the industry which, like all industries, experiences fluctations up and down. He's not as excited about his bank account today as he was a few years ago but he is still excited about flying airplanes!
4) My acquaintance, Mr. Busdrvr,... (I've never met you personally and have only your forum postings upon which to base my perspective of your personality and attitudes so forgive me if I opt out of attempting to put words in your mouth with an assessment.)

Amazingly, it's exactly like my mother taught me, Mr. Busdrvr -- it is all about CHOICES. You can choose to be bitter and unhappy or you can choose to accept the circumstances and move on. Some people choose to continue to pursue a career in the airline industry. Some don't. At some point a person simply has to take responsibility for their own decisions and determine whether they choose to remain in this career or go elsewhere. No one is forced to be an airline pilot, even after 30 years of seniority. They're not "trapped" in a job, they choose to stay in that job and accept (grudgingly, perhaps) the reduction in pay and social status. Sure, it may be difficult to make a late-in-life career change but no one claimed life was easy! (My God! That paragraph sounded like Dr. Phil! )

I readily admit that I was lucky (as in "no skill involved") by getting hired at Southwest Airlines. On my acceptance of the employment offer, however, I told my wife that I'd guarantee her 5 years at the company -- the minimum to become 100% vested in all profit sharing contributions. After that I was working day-to-day. If the position ever became a "J-O-B" I was outta there! I am confident that there are plenty of other occupations I can do to assure my happiness and the welfare of my family. Currently, I choose to be at SWA. (I also don't spend my entire overnights down at the bar but rather utilize most of that time for academic endeavors that enhance my personal knowledge and professional marketability. It can be done if you choose to make the effort!)

Just in case, however, I keep this phone number in my wallet ...
http://www.dieseldrivingacademy.com/

 

[ualdriver]

Corl737, are you a pilot for SWA? What position do you hold in your company?

 

[corl737]

What position do you hold in your company?

My position is "sitting down and facing forward." Why do you ask? :blink:

Actually, I'm a Capt based at MDW. I'm just a regular line swine with no intentions of being anything more. When I'm working I like to be as productive as possible -- 8 hrs flying/day is optimum in my book. When I'm off, leave me alone!

 

[Busdrvr]

Corl, You are one of those guys who often has a differant opinion than mine, but whom i still respect. now to your "bullets"
1. So does Gordo Bathune. He has only a HS education. But the "typical" pilot is a far diff animal than the English major. As a matter of fact, after you and I left the student pilot world, being an English major in UPT became a little more difficult.
2. I wouldn't mind being a Gyn as a hobby, but doing it full time aint the same. Most people who glamorize the aviation profession have no idea what it's about.
3. Your friend is the problem
4. It IS about choices. and bitterness has got absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I'm simply saying that those who chose this profession 15-20 years ago based that decision on pay rates that were roughly double todays (corrected for inflation)and based on for more reasonable work rules. Simple economics would indicate that given the choice, at least some of those individuals would have taken another path had they been given better information on the future. likewise, the lower expectations for pay and lifestyle will surely dissuade at least some of those looking at the profession today, and the ones that will most likely be dissuaded are those with the most/best other options... ie the best and the brightest. My simple point is that the job, for most, does not pay what it should anymore. unfortunately, as FWAA pointed out, we have HUGE levels of "sunk costs" invested in our seniority as well as in our training. the fact that a majority of current aviators view the profession as a positive from a maginal benefit standpoint (writing off that sunk cost) does not make it a viable career economically for those who have not yet made the investment.

 

[ualdriver]

Why do you ask?
I ask because I some of the comments you've made in your posts are very similar to comments made by people who really don't have any clue about the airline pilot profession. I just wanted to ask to see what I was dealing with.

I think at best the terminology he used crossed the line of professional courtesy.
I wouldn't say it crossed a line of "professional courtesy." It crossed the line of being a professional. I do volunteer work for my union, and if one of my fellow ALPA volunteers made a statement like that in the NY Times (assuming he wasn't quoted way out of context), I'd want him removed from that position after he made a public apology. Frankly, I'd be embarassed if a UAL guy made a comment like that in the NY Times.

Let me give you an example, though, of what crosses the line of "professional courtesy":

Just in case, however, I keep this phone number in my wallet ...

Perhaps you got hired at SWA with "no skills involved" (your words, not mine) but I didn't at my airline. Maybe that link will be very useful for you and your "skill level" if you decide to leave SWA, but to even make the implication that there is any correlation between a professional truck driver and a professional airline pilot is inane.

To claim any pilot at a major airline is "overworked and underpaid" fails to face the reality that the position still ranks well above the national average in terms of compensation.

Here's another beauty and why "I asked." What does the fact that airline pilots, in general, get paid more than the "national average in terms of compensation" have to do with anything? My job also ranks WELL above the national avearage in terms of professional responsibility and that's one of the many reasons why it pays much more than the "national average." Why would you even make a statement like that?


I read many of Busdrvr's posts, and he doesn't strike me as bitter. He does strike me as frustrated, however, like me, as we watch talented pilots and mechanics get laid off and leave the profession, only to be replaced by a $2/hr. mechanic from El Salvador or a 15 thousand dollar a year, 250hr. express pilot all in the name of "cheap tickets" -but I digress.

Mr. Hefner, however, strikes me as perhaps a little bitter. One has to wonder why one of my peers would state something like that in the NY Times. I suspect Mr. Hefner got turned down for jobs perhaps by a DAL or an AMR or other legacy "back in the day" before SWA picked him up. Perhaps he had to get that little "jab" in there now that SWA is one of the more desirable places to work, at least for now. Either that or he just isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[corl737]

I just wanted to ask to see what I was dealing with.

I'll save you the time of guessing about me:
I'm currently employed as a Southwest Airlines Capt. I'm in this profession because:
1) I enjoy flying.
2) It provides the time off to spend with my family and do the things I truly like to do.
3) It pays the bills and affords my family a decent lifestyle.

I'm at SWA because I got tired of flying into LGA in my fractional job. ("Who doesn't go to LGA?" I asked myself. A-ha! SWA!) Besides, I knew that I had no desire to work for a real airline with all it's disfunctional labor relations. Life's too short to have to deal with those attitudes.

As I said in my message to Busdrivr, I'll stay at SWA until it becomes a "J-O-B." I'll work my hardest to be the best and most professional airline pilot around but I'm not tied to my seniority number. If the working conditions go south, I'll go south, too, probably to the beach! I am confident I can do any of a number of things and be happy, including driving trucks! This approach to life, not just airline flying, has helped to sleep well at night.

[...] but to even make the implication that there is any correlation between a professional truck driver and a professional airline pilot is inane.

Geez, ualdrivr, do you have your "professional pilot" ego wound so tight that you couldn't recognize humor! Notice the after the link? Besides, every real pilot I know would recognize the direct reference to the line out of Top Gun! <-- PLEASE NOTE EMOTICON!!!

If you haven't noticed, in the transportation industry, truck drivers are in much greater demand than airline pilots. It, too, is a very respectable career choice. (By the way, Diesel Driving Academy is one of the nation's premier truck driving schools. I wouldn't point any of my comrades in a direction other than toward the best!)

What does the fact that airline pilots, in general, get paid more than the "national average in terms of compensation" have to do with anything? My job also ranks WELL above the national avearage in terms of professional responsibility and that's one of the many reasons why it pays much more than the "national average." Why would you even make a statement like that?

I made my statement because it's what I believe. Yes, airline pilots command a measure of respect due to the nature of their duties. However, in the big picture, I fully believe that a first grade teacher has a more profound effect on society than we do and certainly demands more respect than they receive.

The conundrum we face is that we've become so safe at what we do that the opportunity to "earn" that big pay doesn't come along very often. Without frequent, visible demonstrations of the value of our superior preparedness, the public's short attention span turns to focusing on the cheapest price to get between points. (Maybe we could start a reality show and put pilots into real airplanes that are on fire, have engines shut down, or whatever? It would sure be more entertaining than A&E's Airline!)

I read many of Busdrvr's posts, and he doesn't strike me as bitter. He does strike me as frustrated, however, like me, as we watch talented pilots and mechanics get laid off and leave the profession, only to be replaced by a $2/hr. mechanic from El Salvador or a 15 thousand dollar a year, 250hr. express pilot all in the name of "cheap tickets" -but I digress.

I'll defer to your observation since you are way closer to the issue than I am.

Mr. Hefner, [....]

I don't know Jeff personally and won't even guess as to his motivation for the comments he made. I can tell you he's taking significant heat in company internal forums.

 

[traderjake]

I'm simply saying that those who chose this profession 15-20 years ago based that decision on pay rates that were roughly double todays (corrected for inflation)and based on for more reasonable work rules.

Things change. Did someone tell you they would not?

Sorry you're having a hard time dealing with reality.

 

[Elivs Lives]

While it appears that Busdrivr believes everything he reads in his NYTimes, there might be some problems with the accuracy of this story (go figure). This is from FLightinfo, but I could've just as easily pulled it from the SWAPA web site. Enjoy.

SOUTHWEST AIRLINES
Pilots' Association
March 7, 2006

Captain Duane E. Woerth, President, ALPA
535 Herndon Parkway Herndon, VA 20170

Dear Duane,

On Monday, March 6 an article authored by Matthew Wald, New York Times writer, quoted a Southwest Airlines' pilot in an article entitled "Nothing but Gray Skies " After speaking to the reporter personally on at least two occasions today and speaking to the pilot who was "quoted" in the article I'm confident the reporter for some unknown reason included inaccurate and unsubstantiated comments attributed to a Southwest Airlines' pilot.

1. When asked several times today, the reporter could not recall specifically the time and place he allegedly interviewed the Southwest Airlines' pilot.. He was asked in very specific terms and was given several opportunities to confirm the precise comments he created to the pilot. He could not confirm they occurred as printed.
2. The reporter did call SWAPA for a comment in late .January in regards to another topic. He spoke to a SWAPA staff member who has a record of the call,. No information was passed to the reporter other than an acknowledgement of his request for information that would be passed to the appropriate individuals.
3 The reporter stated he was given the pilot's name by a SWAPA staff member, however the SWAPA staff' member confirmed this did not occur. It is the policy of SWAPA to never release the name of members to outside agencies; this includes the press.
4 The Captain involved was never interviewed by this reporter in regards to this story The Captain categorically denies the statements attributed to him.

The press can be your friend; however in this case Mr. Wald got it wrong. The alleged quotes reported by Mr. Wald in no way reflect the views or opinions of the Southwest Airlines' pilots SWAPA appreciates what all pilots have sacrificed to save their airlines and works cooperatively on many levels with ALPA, APA and all professional pilot organizations. SWAPA is contacting the paper to request a retraction and is pursuing other avenues to correct the inaccurate reporting which occurred

Best regards,
Joseph "Ike" Eichelkraut President, SWAPA
Brookview Plaza 0 1450 Empire Central Dr Suite 737 0 Dallas TX 75247
Phone: 214..350-9237 • Tollfree: 800-969-7972 . Fax: 214-350-0647 s www swapa org

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/...ser_online.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif

 

[FWAAA]

You mean the NYT reporter made it up?

Of course, it's happened before at that paper.

I'm skeptical that the WN pilot made the quoted statements.

 

[Busdrvr]

Elvis,
Personally, i hope you're correct, and if so, I sincerely hope that Capt Hefner DEMANDS a retraction and an apology. I too, will apologize at that time for trusting one of the countries, ahem, "more respected" rags over a professional aviator at SWA.

"Things change. Did someone tell you they would not?

Sorry you're having a hard time dealing with reality."

Trader Jack,
actually, I had a contract that said times wouldn't change. They did, I got another degree, and will likely make more than Corl this year. Now the fact that "things changed" doesn't address the relative merits of why they changed or the future effects of those changes. If you are that intellectually incapable of understanding the underlying point, then maybe you should be over on "myspace" cruisin for some 8th graders who would undoubtedly be more on your level.

 

[mga707]

No, it's my way of saying he likes to camp and ride horses....

MGA is a worthless POS. His lack knowledge is only matched by his lack of class. My apologies if I've offended anyone else by responding to his use of profanity in attacking me personally.

No offense taken, Pompous Ass(tm)!
(since when is "ass" profanity?)

 

[corl737]

actually, I had a contract that said times wouldn't change. They did, I got another degree, and will likely make more than Corl this year.

I certainly hope that you and every other pilot in the airline industry makes more than I do. It's a testament to the screwiness of the system when a 737 driver is near the top of the scale!

I applaud you and anyone who makes the effort to further their own personal knowledge and professional marketability through advanced studies and training. It's too easy to get complacent once you get a seniority number. As is far too obvious, change isn't always expected nor pleasant. Having prepared for the possibility of a forced career change in advance is a great strategy!

 

[mga707]

Trader Jack,
actually, I had a contract that said times wouldn't change. They did, I got another degree, and will likely make more than Corl this year. Now the fact that "things changed" doesn't address the relative merits of why they changed or the future effects of those changes. If you are that intellectually incapable of understanding the underlying point, then maybe you should be over on "myspace" cruisin for some 8th graders who would undoubtedly be more on your level.

If the above paragraph doesn't absolutely nail the reason why I've given this blowhard the nickname that I have, then nothing will!
How does he fit his head through the door with that overinflated of an ego?
Thanks, Pompous Ass(tm) for so succinctly proving my point yet again...

 

[Busdrvr]

No offense taken, Pompous Ass(tm)!
(since when is "ass" profanity?)

I see your reading comprehension is still rather weak. RTFP, I clearly refered to anyone ELSE. I intended to offend you. WADR, you're an idiot. and since you don't think "ass" is offensive and profanity, and since we're assigning "nicknames", then I have a nickname for you. The University of South Carolina utilizes the "Gamecock" as it's mascot. The fans often use the cheer "Go Cocks" so obviously "Cock" cannot be construed as offensive. Additionally, a Lolipop is often refered to as a "Sucker". Now there shouldn't be any problem with putting two such innocuous words together to discribe you. And I'm probably not the only one who thinks it is an accurate nickname for you. (picture this with a different set of fingers extended).

 

[mga707]

My God, I'm lovin' this! Ol' Pompous Ass(tm) just keeps proving my accurate assessment of himself over and over and over...
Isn't it about time for his little sockpuppet buddy Captain Battootie(tm) to pop up here with one of his uniquely (and borderline psychotic) observations?