NYT Article

wnbubbleboy

Veteran
Aug 21, 2002
944
22
By God Indiana
Nothing but gray skies...
By Matthew L. Wald The New York Times
MONDAY, MARCH 6, 2006



WASHINGTON Within the world of aviation, airline pilots used to be one step down from astronauts. Now they feel one step up from bus drivers, at least in the United States.

With half the seats in U.S. airliners run by companies either in bankruptcy or limping out of it, even the pilots at the pinnacle - the ones who are within a few years of the mandatory retirement age of 60, flying the big planes and earning top dollar - are facing a new world.

Their pay and pensions have been cut, and they work more hours to earn it. In another concession to the airlines, their days are interrupted more than ever by long hours of unpaid idleness.

They say they try hard not to let these things break their concentration or interfere with their work, flying passengers by the scores or hundreds around the country and the world. They have piloted their planes to 40 million safe takeoffs and landings in the United States in the past five years, whether the airline was solvent or bankrupt or just squeaking by.

Some factors hurting American carriers, like high fuel prices, affect airlines elsewhere as well. But the extreme belt-tightening and wave of bankruptcies have been largely limited to the United States.

There, the boardroom blues are working their way into the cockpit.

"My philosophy right now is, I just go to work," said a US Airways captain who, before his company's troubles, always loved to fly. He recently flew a 6 a.m. flight from Newark, New Jersey, to Miami, then piloted a plane from Miami to Los Angeles the next evening, then a flight back to Newark, accumulating 15 paid hours for three days.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration limits commercial pilots on domestic flights - measured from pushing back at one gate to arrival at another - to eight hours a day, 30 hours in seven days, 100 hours a month and 1,000 hours a year. The airlines do not exceed those limits, but many now schedule much closer to them.

The FAA rules do not address the amount of time between flights, so a pilot could be in uniform 12 hours or more to accumulate the day's hours. There is a requirement for eight hours' rest time every 24 hours, however. And pilots acutely feel the difference between getting in a month's work in 14 days, compared with 18 days.

"They kind of bleed us out," the US Airways captain said, on condition he not be identified for fear of losing his job. Pilots for major carriers said they expected to be fired if they were publicly candid about the new conditions of their jobs.

A veteran United Airlines captain, who laments that when he retires in a few years his pension will be about one- fourth what he expected, said he had to shut it out of his mind to prevent the distraction from affecting his work.

After a recent takeoff from California for the long flight across the Pacific, that was all his first officer wanted to talk about. But the captain said he snapped back: "You know what, can we not talk about United Airlines? All it does is cause me frustration and anger, and there's nothing I can do about it. It churns my stomach."

So the two talked about a hobby they have in common, flying single-engine planes on their days off.

The dissatisfaction at the top has not changed some basics of the field: Young people still dream of flying, and people who fly small planes still aspire to fly bigger ones. Legions of laid-off pilots hope to be hired back, even at reduced pay levels.

"They must love it," said Arnold Barnett, a professor of management science at MIT's Sloan School of Business, who said that airline pilots were reacting with more fortitude than other professionals might in the same circumstances. "I cannot fathom how faculty would react if MIT abolished tenure, increased teaching loads and cut salaries by 35 percent because 'market conditions' had changed," he said.

But senior airline pilots, in dozens of interviews, spoke about feeling depressed and struggling not to let it affect their performance.

Academics have noticed a change. "The pilots are not a happy group right now," said Paul Fischbeck, a professor of Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. Fischbeck, who flew in the navy and has colleagues who went on to fly for the airlines, said the change in financial circumstances and job security were good reasons to be unhappy.

But Fischbeck and others pointed out that the industry culture is such that they must face the hardship on their own. Other workers with health plans might seek professional counseling. With pilots licensed by the FAA, however, "as soon as you sign up for it, it's on your record, and you're toast."

A US Airways pilot echoed that sentiment: "If it gets reported to the FAA, you can forget it, you're not coming back to work, until you go through a lot. The system requires us to deal with it ourselves. That makes it very difficult to go through what we just went through."

Maxine Lubner, director of the Aviation Institute at York College, at the City University of New York, said that morale, along with problems like "the distraction of not knowing where your pension is," certainly could not help safety.

But she conceded that there was as yet no empirical evidence. Statistically, the airlines are in one of their safest periods ever, with about one fatal accident for every 15 million flights.

Airline executives say they do not know how to measure the effects on morale. At US Airways, a spokesman, Carlo Bertolini, said, "No one's going to deny that US Airways employees have been through a tough time, with layoffs, changes in work rules and steps lowering costs. A lot of these sacrifices came from employees."

But, he said, "we all have a stake in the safety of the airline. We're definitely confident that all employees always have safety at the top of their mind."

Pilots say the same but add that the change in schedules often means more fatigue.

"You can feel yourself getting to a point where you're beginning to make more little mistakes," said a senior captain at US Airways. "Most of the mistakes are caught very quickly, and most are very minor errors," he said. But, "at that level of fatigue, after weeks or months of this without a break, it's easy to make a major mistake."

Not everyone agrees that the longer working schedule is a problem. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them," said Jeffrey Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.

"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money, and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
 
Not everyone agrees that the longer working schedule is a problem. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them," said Jeffrey Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.

"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money, and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
Mr. Hefner's gets his "big day" being quoted in the NY Times and steps on his......

I see you typing Busdrvr.....let him have it!
 
Well, that's one name that all pilots should remember when it's time to give out the jumpseat. What a ****%*&$%%*$*&#&$#@$&#$&#$&. I wonder if he'll be quite as much of an a$$ when SWA comes a callin in the next year.... What a punk. Does this clown represent the pilots of SWA? Corl? Rhino?
 
Well, that's one name that all pilots should remember when it's time to give out the jumpseat. What a ****%*&$%%*$*&#&$#@$&#$&#$&. I wonder if he'll be quite as much of an a$$ when SWA comes a callin in the next year.... What a punk. Does this clown represent the pilots of SWA? Corl? Rhino?


"Waaaaaaa!!!"
Truth REALLY hurts, don't it?
Mr. Hefner, I salute you!
"They're a bunch of spoiled brats"....proven beyond any doubt by PompousAss'(tm) paragraph above!
 
"They must love it," said Arnold Barnett, a professor of management science at MIT's Sloan School of Business, who said that airline pilots were reacting with more fortitude than other professionals might in the same circumstances. "I cannot fathom how faculty would react if MIT abolished tenure, increased teaching loads and cut salaries by 35 percent because 'market conditions' had changed," he said.

Ah, one can only dream...
 
Does this clown represent the pilots of SWA? Corl? Rhino?
I think at best the terminology he used crossed the line of professional courtesy. To say that life for airline pilots in years gone by was a better pay/quality-of-life ratio would be accurate. To say those folks were "spoiled" isn't. Wouldn't we all like to be living that lifestyle today?
 
I think at best the terminology he used crossed the line of professional courtesy. To say that life for airline pilots in years gone by was a better pay/quality-of-life ratio would be accurate. To say those folks were "spoiled" isn't. Wouldn't we all like to be living that lifestyle today?

It would be bad enough comming from a Brokeback Mountain regular like MGA707, but when your unions safety rep says something like this, it could spark a HUGE backlash. I'm waiting for the letter to the NYT that points out SWA's lack disregard for duty day and safety in a few incidents recently. I could even see the family of the kid in the Midway accident cite this idiot in showing the jury that SWA doesn't take safety seriously and that SWA should have to pay HUGE punative damages to wake SWA up. This is the SAFETY guy. Absolutely INCREDIBLE.
 
What does "Brokeback Mountain have to do with this discussion?

Is this your timely way of calling MGA707 gay?

WTF?


No, it's my way of saying he likes to camp and ride horses....

MGA is a worthless POS. His lack knowledge is only matched by his lack of class. My apologies if I've offended anyone else by responding to his use of profanity in attacking me personally.
 
If this is such a bad job why are there lines of pilots outside most airlines headquarters looking for work at said pay?

And by the way IMHO the statements by Busdriver above go way beond the rules of this board, good manners, and good mental health
 
If this is such a bad job why are there lines of pilots outside most airlines headquarters looking for work at said pay?

And by the way IMHO the statements by Busdriver above go way beond the rules of this board, good manners, and good mental health

thanks for your opinion. :rolleyes:

to clear up your misconception WRT pilots 'lining up' for jobs I'll add a few facts.
the "pipeline" to be a pilot at a major is typically 15-20 years. When the typical AF or Navy pilot reaches retirement agae or the completion of his commitment, he goes to the best job availible for which he has the training. Does that mean that individual would have made the same career choice had he known what would happen to the profession? No. I'd venture to guess that a large number would have taken another direction. Additionally, a pilot who is currently flying does not have the ability to seek education and training on the side for a differant career. Not many airline gigs would allow enough sched flex to go to night school.
What we have is a large number of highly qualified folks who are 'trapped' in an overworked underpaid profession. While you may grouse from the outside about your uninformed opinion, the truth is that the quality of poeple entering the pipeline IS going down and it the lower quality will be flying your family around in 5-10 years.
Since you took such offense to my post at MGA, then I'll assume you enjoy camping and horses also, so tell MGA I said hi... :)
 
What we have is a large number of highly qualified folks who are 'trapped' in an overworked underpaid profession.

There are pilots who now work more than they used to and receive less pay than they used to. To claim any pilot at a major airline is "overworked and underpaid" fails to face the reality that the position still ranks well above the national average in terms of compensation. (Furloughed individuals may express a different perspective but receiving zero pay for zero work would seem to be a reasonable expectation.)

Perhaps you have decided that it's not worth your while to participate as a pilot in the airline industry (you said in a different thread that you've opted to pass on your recall) but the vast majority of pilots still believe it's a great job -- even in today's industry environment -- and will be happy to take your spot on the seniority list.
 
OK, lets make this simple.
In consideration of what the "average pilot", both mil and civil, goes thru financially and based upon what he likely would have been able to make in another career, what do YOU think would be pay that would qualify him as underpaid. What are working conditions that YOU think would make him 'overworked'? When forming your conclusion, please consider the following
- A large share of the mil pilots graduated from two of the toughest institutes in the nation to get into (USNA and USAFA)
- After investing decades in training and in some cases over $100K in cash for training, you could end up on the street for something as simple as passing out, mild diabetes, or similarly common maladies
- For every pilot that makes it to the 'show', there are likely several who never made it that far.
- While you appear (at least this week....)to have made the right decision or were just plain lucky, consider those who were at worst your equal (some even left SWA for the majors) who found themselves working at Mesa for under 30K after the industry turned sour for the Global airlines after 911. Consider that the AVERAGE major airline pilot in the U.S. has likely been thru at least one BK and at least one extended furlough period.
- Consider that Airline pilots are allowed to work far more hours a day than truck drivers can work.
- Consider that every airline doesn't have most of their bases in one of the lowest COL states in the union. consider the size home the number you come up with will buy in SFO, IAD, NYC, ORD or LAX. Consider that most Airline pilots are the "primary breadwinner" and the unique scheduling constraints make it often impractical to have a spouse that works also. Consider the costs to a family when one of the parents is gone up to 20 days a month, EVERY month.
- Consider that when a Capt takes the controls, he's taking the controls of an asset worth up to $200 million dollars, which is way more than the market cap of a VAST majority of U.S. businesses, with the added bonus of the responsibility for the LIVES of over 400 people.

So again, I'll ask, what is the payrate below which you'd say a pilot is "underpaid"? What is the TAFB that you think would qualify as "overworked"? Please give me concrete numbers so we can have a rational discussion, and see if maybe you're just uninformed on what the real salary is for most airline pilots.
 
While you appear (at least this week....)to have made the right decision or were just plain lucky, consider those who were at worst your equal (some even left SWA for the majors) who found themselves working at Mesa for under 30K after the industry turned sour for the Global airlines after 911.

Last I checked, SWA was a major airline. As for those pilots who left SWA to join a "major"...I imagine they kick themselves when flying as an FO on a regional jet, when they could have been a captain of a Southwest 737.
 
So again, I'll ask, what is the payrate below which you'd say a pilot is "underpaid"? What is the TAFB that you think would qualify as "overworked"? Please give me concrete numbers so we can have a rational discussion, and see if maybe you're just uninformed on what the real salary is for most airline pilots.

Aren't those numbers going to be vastly different for different people?

The 40 year old AA pilot who suffered a paycut of approximately 50% in the concessions of 2003 (between the hourly rate cut and the seat downgrade) is now underpaid, IMO. Yet due to the airline employee equivalent of crack (seniority), there's really nothing they can do about it unless they want to abandon airline pilot and do something completely different. I guess they could, theoretically, quit their AA job and hope to land a job at WN, but they're probably smart enought to know that WN's pilots' contract is amendable this year and WN may come a callin.

The 25 year old flying as a FO on the regional, making less than $25k? Underpaid, if you ask me, but he/she signed up for that when they hired on. And given that they're only 25, they knew that pay sucked a few years ago when they were still paying the big bucks for their education and flight hours that would eventually allow them to land such a low-paid gig.

1000 hours a year? Probably overworked if you takeoff and land a 37 seat RJ a total of 10 times a day (five 45 minute flights) 15 days per month, and maybe, perhaps, a little underworked if you fly 15 hour flights three times a month (12 total takeoffs and landings a month) for 6-8 times as much $$$ as that RJ pilot.
 

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