NW FAs Dump Teamsters

[WingNaPrayer]

Will AA FAs be looking to dump their less than representative union next?

NORTHWEST FLIGHT ATTENDANTS QUIT TEAMSTERS

Still smarting from a culture clash with truck drivers at the 2001 Teamster convention, the 11,000 flight attendants at Northwest voted yesterday to leave the union. The group decided instead to join a newly formed independent union based in New Hampshire called the Professional Flight Attendants Association. During a six-week voting period, 4,857 Northwest flight attendants cast their votes for PFAA, while 3,916 voted to remain affiliated with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, according to the National Mediation Board, which is expected to certify the election results by today, paving the way for the groups to part ways.

LINK to full story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Jun19.html

 

[FA Mikey]

No, we are what NWA is going for. An independent union with our own issues on fore front. IBT like TWU was to us. Uninterested in our concerns issues.

APFA needs and will soon have a change of leadership. That''s what we need.

 

[FA Mikey]

"When you become a little independent union, you don''t have a voice in big national issues," said AFA spokesman Jeff Zack. "Cabin issues are decided by the Federal Aviation Administration. It''s a federal body, operating in Washington, D.C., and if you don''t have a voice there, you could be damaged."

Sounds like AFA fears a break up from some of there own. There is no more power from being in a big international that doesn''t properly represent your interests. Than can be offered by a coalition of independents. Truck drivers are not interested in changing legislation for flight attendants. The only voice was from the 10,000 NWA cabin attendants. No more no less than will be out there now.

 

[j7915]

Sounds like a very familiar postal address, Laconia,NH.

What is the URL for the pilot's union located at the same street address?

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/20/2003 1:07:49 PM j7915 wrote:

Sounds like a very familiar postal address, Laconia,NH.

What is the URL for the pilot''s union located at the same street address?

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You got it!! Another money maker for the infamous McCormick Group and Seham and Seham law firm. Wouldn''t surprise me if ole Delle has his fingers in it too. If these FA''s felt they had no voice before they''re probably going to feel as if they''ve had they''re tongue cut out now. Another win for NWA management!

 

[FA Mikey]

Some discontent is good. It brings activism and people willing to serve and lead. Going from an independent to another independent serves no purpose. Its a matter of cleaning house.

The cards and signatures are being collected. Candidates are showing intrest. AA flight attendants have been apart of larger organizations in the past. ALSSA and the TWU before going on there own and finally scoring decent pay, work rules and other forms of quality of life. There will always be room for improvement. Since AA was successful in gutting many parts of or CBA. We have a bit of a hole to work out of before moving ahead.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/20/2003 12:16:44 PM FA Mikey wrote:

No, we are what NWA is going for. An independent union with our own issues on fore front. IBT like TWU was to us. Uninterested in our concerns issues.

APFA needs and will soon have a change of leadership. That''s what we need.

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The APFA is truly an independent union. This group poses as an independant but has outside forces with less than stellar reputations pulling the strings. See above post. I''m surprised they haven''t started collecting cards at AA yet. Look out for them because these groups with addresses in Lanconia NH are like Vultures hovering around waiting for signs of discontent to pounce.

 

[Bob Owens]

Since you have the ability to change leadership there is no point in going from one independent union to another. However there is weight to the point of having political clout. The APFA should seek to pool resources with the PFAA with the long-term intention of a possible merger. They should also seek to work with the AFA since all three unions are primarily focused on the same issues. Right now Pat Friend seems to be running scared for some reason and is seeking a safe harbor with a bigger union. Those harbors could be mined.

The big three just do not get it. Hoffa, Hall and Buffenbarger are too worried about their own little empires as they help bring about the downfall of the labor movement. Luckily for the workers the movement and ideology of unionism is still within the hearts of many as they seek to get the representation they need.

It seems that even the baggage handlers are finally going for a union that is specifically targeted towards them. The AGW promises accountability, something that all three of the incumbents refuse to give.

Hoffa, Hall and Buffenbarger fail to realize that you can deny accountability when you are getting the members raises and improving their lives, most members don’t care who, what, where, when and why when things get better, but when these idiots are giving away the store as they still reap their huge rewards, rewards that are provided through the members dues, then the members rightfully want answers and accountability. In the past when the losses were minor, compared to what we have just seen, members were content to punish local officials who meekly repeated what they Internationals told them to say. Members realize that changing local leadership will not change the results when the International controls the contract.

The Teamsters probably don’t care all that much. Even if they lose all their ATD they will still be one of the largest Unions in the country with over 1 million members.

The IAM is in the same boat. They are likely to lose at UAL and USAIR before the year is over. A drive for the Independent AGW has started at USAIR and will probably spread to other carriers.

The TWU however is in a different position. The TWU has only around 100,000 members, nearly 50,000 in the ATD, the loss of which would likely mean and end to the flashy Broadway office and maybe a move to the Basement of 80 West End Ave.

However even with this threat they are unlikely to change their ways. Sonny will continue to deny ATD members accountability by putting people like Jim (Chicken) Little in charge. A man that dictates contracts but does not work under the conditions he negotiates nor can the members hold him accountable. Its funny how Jim feels that the pound of flesh, Cartys resignation, should be enough to satisfy the members and help them swallow the Industry Leading Concessions he put in place when in reality its HIS head they want on the spike, not Carty's.

We did not expect Carty to fight for our interests; we expected Little to do that, even though we have about as much choice in choosing Little as we did Arpey. Little put in place the most massive concession package ever, far eclipsing his accomplishments at Eagle (12 year contract?). And there is not a damned thing that the members can do about it. At least as far as the TWU is concerned. "Pay your dues and shut up. We know what’s best for you, even though it’s not good enough for us." (The lower ranking, appointed International reps make 100% more than top paid mechanics)

The AA Flight Attendants realized this over twenty years ago. They made the move and I believe that APFA represented flight attendants make considerably more that TWU represented Flight Attendants. All flight attendants should be in a union where their issues are put first. The flight attendants need to pool their efforts though. Their representation has not saved them from taking cuts also, but at least you guys have recourse against those who failed you. They should make contact with the AFA and use that affiliation to get a back door into the AFL-CIO, which despite the many misconceptions remains a viable route to political influence.

The AFL-CIO is not the monolithic bastion of labor that many think it is. Member unions of the AFL-CIO reserve power for themselves that they deny to their members. Member unions can opt out at any time and go their own way, as the Teamsters have done several times. Ideologies within the AFL-CIO vary greatly, from Craft unions (ALPA, AFA,), to industrial unions (UAW) to business unions (IAM, TWU). There are those in the organization who agree with the idea that unions should specialize so they can focus on a particular membership. One of the possible sources for such support comes from the SEUI, the largest union in the country, also the origin of John Sweeney. The SEIU put out a paper recently that highlights the problems facing today’s labor movement. It is posted with permission on the 562 website. It’s titled "United We Win".

The fact is that change is needed to the structure of unionism in this industry. No other industry has seen such a massive retreat by labor. Our unions, the IAM, TWU and IBT would never commit the full resources of their organizations to our industry. Apparently they will not even give us the benefit of choosing who will have control over our contracts. Their displays of "Solidarity" are a pathetic facade as they use their members as pawns to gain market share of the airline industry. Instead of uniting to resist what has happened they competed to underbid each other with the hope of driving the other unions host company out of business. They hid this game from their members and the only time that they stick together is to fight upstart unions that are the result of their exploitive and negligent management of the affairs of their airline union members, get government handouts to the airlines or convince their members to accept paycuts. The TWU has by far proffered the lowest bid.

If we are to survive and prosper in our chosen professions there must be change. We must have unions that have our professions as their primary interest. If the barriers to change within our current institutions are too great then we must choose another route. Indeed it must be considered if the change needed is at all possible within these structures. The laws of motion dictate that an object in motion will continue in motion on a straight line unless some external force causes it to deviate. Our unions will continue to sell us out and lead us into decline unless there is some external force makes them change their ways. So even if you are unsure of whether or not you want a new union, or new leaders, it’s a good idea to support an election for representation. Elections bring accountability. The incumbents who are now in power should be called to task for the enormous loses suffered by all workers in this industry. Its not enough for Sonny Hall to say that he knows little (no pun intended) about our industry, but then support the actions of his hand picked ATD boss. These losses, these complete unconditional surrenders came without a shot fired. Despite the millions of dollars in dues paid, paid to build up an arsenal to defend our living standards, it was almost as if the unions did not exist, as non-union workers in many cases lost less than union represented workers. This is a disgrace. And one of the reasons why it happened is because the Unions felt that it would be cheaper to sell out the members than to fight the corporate government alliance. They did not want to use their bullets (that we paid for) to defend us. And there is no way that we can make them.

One of the changes that we need is to no longer have workers in this industry divided along corporate lines. If you are a pilot you should be in a pilots union, mechanics in a mechanics union, flight attendants in a flight attendants unions and so on. All of these unions should be in a common association in order to pool resources (Union halls, staff, equipement, information etc) to address those issues which are common to all or that one of the smaller groups need assistance with. This association should seek to become aligned with the AFL-CIO to broaden its access to political power.

Sonny Hall insists that such change is not prevented by him but rather those just below him who are looking to fill his position. He insists that they are resistant to change since they feel that such a change could eliminate their chances for moving up (into that $200,000/year job). In other words while these guys spew rhetoric about solidarity, which requires mutual sacrifice for mutual gain, they will fight to resist beneficial change for the many because it could deny the very very few the ability to make six figure salaries. Now it becomes a little clearer why the labor movement is in such trouble. Our leaders are just as selfish and greedy as our bosses and neither of them are held accountable to us. From where they are sitting there is no need for change. If we were all locked in at $143,000 a year perhaps we would feel the same way.

All those who are responsible for what we have just seen should be removed. That includes any leader that failed to resist these massive concessions. Local Leaders that claim that they were mislead by “the International†are not leaders and they too should be removed. In many cases the entire institution may need to be removed since they prevent the members from getting accountability and restructuring unionism in this industry so this can never happen again.

One thing that is really disturbing is that not once did any of these leaders question whether it would be economically or politically possible for the government to sit by and watch three of its largest air carriers to disappear nor did they even bother to put forth a plan to resist. What is even more pathetic is the only joint demonstration that these pathetic union leaders could put forth was one that called for more government relief for the airlines! This was after the same unions, who gave similar support following 9/11, were given the cold shoulder by the airlines when they asked them to support extending unemployment benefits for laid off airline workers.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 6/20/2003 355 PM AAmech wrote:




Look out for them because these groups with addresses in Lanconia NH are like Vultures hovering around waiting for signs of discontent to pounce.

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Vultures are not a threat. Vultures only eat the dead. They dont kill, they eat after the killing has been done by something else. We should be wary of the killers not the scavengers.​

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 6/20/2003 1:07:49 PM j7915 wrote:

Sounds like a very familiar postal address, Laconia,NH.

What is the URL for the pilot''s union located at the same street address?

----------------
​

Who cares?

Just like we always say to the members "Its all about the contract", the Constitution is the contract that a Union has with its members. It seems that the "contracts" coming out of NH give the members the right to choose their leaders, the ones that actually sign the company contracts that is. Members actually get to vote on the Constitution and top union officials! In the TWU members dont even have the right to know how their delegates voted at the Convention, the only opportunity there is to change the Constitution. The question is why wont the TWU, IAM or the IBT do the same? What is wrong with Democracy, accountability and transparancy?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 6/20/2003 3:03:30 PM AAmech wrote:

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You got it!! Another money maker for the infamous McCormick Group and Seham and Seham law firm. Wouldn''t surprise me if ole Delle has his fingers in it too. If these FA''s felt they had no voice before they''re probably going to feel as if they''ve had they''re tongue cut out now. Another win for NWA management!​

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Another win for NWA management? They have a long way to go before their record becomes as good as AA''s.

AA''s accomplishments;
First to get retro vacation concessions
First to get reto Holiday concessions
First to slash holidays from 10 to five
First to reduce holiday bonus from 12 hours to 4
First to cross utilize
First with Part time
First with prefunding
first with employye contributory medical
First with prefunding
First to pay subcontactor pay scales at a major carrier making contracting in cheaper than contracting out.
First at many more but I dont want to spend all day here.


Whats the top pay at NWA? What is it at AA?
​

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 6/21/2003 9:41:06 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Since you have the ability to change leadership there is no point in going from one independent union to another. However there is weight to the point of having political clout. The APFA should seek to pool resources with the PFAA with the long-term intention of a possible merger. They should also seek to work with the AFA since all three unions are primarily focused on the same issues. Right now Pat Friend seems to be running scared for some reason and is seeking a safe harbor with a bigger union. Those harbors could be mined.

----------------​

Right now the PFAA will have huge organizational issues pending. Interim leaders followed by membership elections. They will feel the pressure from NWA to submit to their desires for cuts. There work and hands are full. All efforts should be directed to and for the NWA attendants. I agree with you, except for the idea of a possible merger. I want all my unions time effort and dues money spent on issues improving the life''s of AA flight attendants. We currently have a coalition of flight attendant unions. That included APFA, AFA and until recently IBT. It tries to work with the FAA and congress for rules and legislation for the betterment of all flight attendants. A pool of resources like that is as close to merger I will ever deal with.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 6/21/2003 10:25:46 AM FA Mikey wrote:

Right now the PFAA will have huge organizational issues pending. Interim leaders followed by membership elections. They will feel the pressure from NWA to submit to their desires for cuts. There work and hands are full. All efforts should be directed to and for the NWA attendants. I agree with you, except for the idea of a possible merger. I want all my unions time effort and dues money spent on issues improving the life's of AA flight attendants. We currently have a coalition of flight attendant unions. That included APFA, AFA and until recently IBT. It tries to work with the FAA and congress for rules and legislation for the betterment of all flight attendants. A pool of resources like that is as close to merger I will ever deal with.

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One problem with that myopic strategy is that with the ease through which capital and other assetts can be transferred you will always be vulnerable to whipsawing and the threat of bankruptcy. Your futures are too closely tied to the company. By merging the unions, in the future you could have it where the maintenance of the rates becomes paramount instead of the survival of one particular company. In other words we would not care what color the tail is, this is what this job pays. All you need under the current structure is one weak carreir to bring down the wages of every one else. It forces us to compete with each other leaving the company as the winner of the contest. You must remember that we not only have to compete domestically but also Internationally. As rules are relaxed more of our work will be going overseas, how could we expect foreign workers to consider solidarity with American workers when we are so divided with many different unions represeting the same type of workers? The flight attendants already have this, the mechanics do too, the pilots are next but they dont seem to realize it yet. With all these partnerships how hard would it be for them to start sharing crews (like Delta and Aer Lingus used to do) or sub contract out pilots like BA does?

We are all being put in a race to the bottom.

While accountability, transparancy, democracy and specialization are all things that we need from our unions the structure must also try to minimalize our dependancy upon one particular employer. Lifetime jobs are no longer the norm. Our unions must become structured to better deal with this fact. If not then we must accept the fact that our wages will continue to go lower and lower as airlines compete with lower and lower fares. If your future is completely tied to AA and its survival then you are completely dependant on and subject to the company.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/21/2003 10:25:22 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Whats the top pay at NWA? What is it at AA?
​

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What was the top pay at NWA 12/02? What was it at AA?