Northwest 787 Dreamliner !

[NWA/AMT]

MY concern is; didn't they just order more A330 since the beginning of 2005, why? Is this beacuse of orders placed earlier but delayed?

[post="262065"][/post]​

Actually, the reason they gave for ordering the additional A330s was the desire to replace the DC10-30s ahead of their original schedule. NWA has so far been very satisfied with the A330s and they seem to be a part of the long term strategy.

The 787 deal appears to be more to address a operational segment that is now being addressed with airplanes either too large or too small, as well as a desire to obtain what will undoubtedly be one of the main airplanes of the first half of this century.

 

[Bigsky]

Nice Article on the B787

Aerospace Notebook: Advances work to 787's advantage

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

With all its cutting-edge technology and an airframe made almost entirely of composites, one feature on The Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner will be especially appealing to passengers who don't much care for bumpy airplane rides.

Because of advances in computer processing since Boeing developed the 777 in the early 1990s, the 787 will be much more steady in flight.

"It will ride better in turbulence," said Walt Gillette, vice president of engineering and manufacturing for the 787 program.

Studies have found that during moderate to severe turbulence, about 5 percent of passengers can become air sick because of the up and down and side to side motion of the plane. Boeing believes the ride-enhancement qualities that will be used on the 787 will reduce that to about 2 percent.

Computers will make extremely rapid changes in the 787's flight controls to better adapt to turbulence and dampen out motions.

"If we had had this kind of processing technology 15 years ago, we would have done it on the 777," Gillette said.

The 777 does have some ride-improvement features, but nothing like those that will be used on the 787.

Gillette recently spoke about some of the other changes that passengers can expect when the 787 enters airline service in 2008. After nearly 40 years with Boeing, Gillette is one of the company's most knowledgeable and respected aerodynamicists.

The 787 will have a composite fuselage -- the first for a large commercial jet transport.



There is a common misconception that a composite structure is more rigid than one made of aluminum, Gillette said.

"Composites are not rigid," he said.

But by design Boeing will make the 787 fuselage a little stiffer than it needs to be. This is because airlines wanted a thicker composite layer in some places on the fuselage to reduce ramp rash, the name given to the damage caused to jets when they are parked on the ground. Jets are frequently hit by sky bridges, baggage carts and trucks, and the repair bills for an aluminum plane can add up.

In addition to this thicker layer of composite material providing more stiffness, the increased pressure inside the fuselage of the 787 will make it more rigid, Gillette said. In order to improve passenger comfort -- and to take advantage of the extra strength of composite -- Boeing will have the 787 cabin pressurized for an altitude of about 6,000 feet.

Today's jetliner cabins are pressurized for about 8,000 feet. The lower cabin altitude means greater pressure inside the fuselage. The difference will be noticeable to passengers after a long flight, according to Boeing.

"This is good," Gillette said of the stiffer 787 fuselage. "A stiffer fuselage moves less, and that gives the vertical tail more chance to keep the plane steady."

The 787's wings will also be composite. Passengers seated next to the large windows on the 787 will notice those wings bent upward in flight more than they would be on the 777, Gillette said.

The 777 is a much larger plane. But because composites are stronger than aluminum, Boeing is giving the 787 the same wingspan as that of the 777-200, but with about 20 percent less surface area. As a result, the wing will flex more during flight.

Boeing hopes to have a large model of the 787 with its wings bent upward for display at the Paris Air Show in June.

"We want to show the airplane the way it looks in flight," Gillette said, although he stressed that it is still too early in the planning stage to know if the model will be ready by the air show

The upturned wings aren't the only distinctive design element of Boeing's new jet.

Early on, the 787, then known as the 7E7, was shown in computer images with a distinctive design that included a sharklike tail, long nose and the more narrow wings.

Boeing wanted its new jet to be instantly recognized in the same way that the 747 is because of that hump just behind the cockpit. And the 787 did look different, and ultrasleek, as if it were a shark or porpoise gliding through the sky.

But Boeing also warned that the shape could change as the final design was refined by engineers.

And it has.

Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program, said the outside design lines of the plane have been frozen. The nose and wings look pretty much as the previous images showed, he said. But the 787 has a more conventional looking tail.

"It's a really good-looking airplane," Bair said.

Boeing is expected to soon release the first computer images of what the 787 will really look like.

 

[UALDC767]

Keeping U.S. dollars in the U.S.-(Boeing and GE) At least for now! Way to go BIG RED

[post="262081"][/post]​

From the bleacher seats...

I don't have the link or the actual numbers...but I recall an article/comment that this will be the most outsourced Boeing aircraft in it's company history.

So while the final dollars will end up in Chicago at HQ, a good chunk will be sent overseas to Japan and Korea,etc. Airplanes have gone the way of the car.....lots of foreign parts with final assembly in this country.

Also, having just witnessed the CAL concessions, and managements threats.....how long before NWA starts clamoring the "we will have to cancel this order unless the employees give us concessions?"

Regardless.....I wish we would be announcing an order soon too.

Frats,

DC

 

[Bigsky]

Also, having just witnessed the CAL concessions, and managements threats.....how long before NWA starts clamoring the "we will have to cancel this order unless the employees give us concessions

That line won't work with NWA labor and management knows it. I am happy to see the B787 coming onto the property but none of us are going to fly that thing for UAL wages. That you can count on!!!!!

 

[UALDC767]

That line won't work with NWA labor and management knows it. I am happy to see the B787 coming onto the property but none of us are going to fly that thing for UAL wages. That you can count on!!!!!

[post="262179"][/post]​

Doesn't mean they won't try.

You don't want to work for our rates, thats great. and I do want you to get the best wages possible.....but you don't think managment won't dangle the 787 order in lieu of some form of concessions?

It's a nice big carrot.

DC

So what is the rate going to be? Between the A-330 and 767? Since historicaly rates are based on size.

 

[nwa400]

Hey BigSky,

I hope you are right that we will not work for UAL wages (that is not a slam by the way) but I would not say " That you can count on!!!!! " I have seen this industry do some pretty weird things in the last few years. Who ever thought that UAL would be bankrupt 5 years ago? I have only been doing this for 18 years so I am not a long timer but it seems as though the words, "Full pay to the last day" don't stand up too well. I am hoping that we all will have jobs and my brothers and sisters at UAL get their airline back. Praying!

 

[Bigsky]

I do agree with you. I have several good friends at UA who had no choice in the matter. Because of the sequence of events, it left UA and it's employees with few options. It does come to point, however, when wages drop below a level that the sacrifices that we as airline employees give every month make it irrational to continue. I wish the best success for all airlines but not at the expense of turning this profession into a lower middle class wage job. We've all spent too many years for that. To reiterate, I am pleased to see NWA management making good decisions, for the most part, that should keep NWA a player in the future but I am not willing to do this job for free to enable that success.

Cheers

Bigsky

 

[North by Northwest]

You got that right..."To reiterate, I am pleased to see NWA management making good decisions, for the most part, that should keep NWA a player in the future but I am not willing to do this job for free to enable that success."

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

"2" things, you can "take to the bank" .

1. Unlike day's gone bye, NW will NEVER risk a strike !!!
2. NW will NEVER see a BK courtroom !!!!!

BUT,
They will find ways to help pay for this TREMENDOUSLY positive transaction.(7E7)

I heard from a reliable source, that Eagan Mn. will use the ol' "divide and conquor" tactic financially $$$$, meaning DTW,MSP,MEM,IND employees vs the "outstations"
For reasons I won't go into, I HOPE I'M WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I predict that BIG RED's bottom line $$$ will improve faster than the other legacy's(excluding AA), and that will be another way to help with the "car payment" !!

And finally, I may be the only one on these boards who thinks that CO is a financial "house of cards", and will wind up, like old republic/north central as part of BIG RED, "MINUS" a lot of CO's employees, and (republic's) intergration problems. (Think AA/TWA minus the 911 horror's)

Add in the possibility that UA's situation is "incureable", then that will speed up even faster NW's bottom line

Time will tell

NH/BB's

 

[Red Tail Bear]

From the bleacher seats...

I don't have the link or the actual numbers...but I recall an article/comment that this will be the most outsourced Boeing aircraft in it's company history.

So while the final dollars will end up in Chicago at HQ, a good chunk will be sent overseas to Japan and Korea,etc. Airplanes have gone the way of the car.....lots of foreign parts with final assembly in this country.

Also, having just witnessed the CAL concessions, and managements threats.....how long before NWA starts clamoring the "we will have to cancel this order unless the employees give us concessions?"

Regardless.....I wish we would be announcing an order soon too.

Frats,

DC

[post="262175"][/post]​

The fact that NW placed the order without a contingency," unlike CO " speaks volumes. Whether or not the IAM gives in to the companys requests for give backs remains to be seen. Either way it seems NW is looking beyond this and plans on being around for quite a while. Hopefully steering clear of that"Giant( BK) Pothole" that UA, US are in and DL is headed straight for. Are we possibly seeing some light at the end of the tunnel or is it a locomotive speeding straight at us. Only time wil tell. Good luck to all Legacy Carriers.

 

[nwa400]

Yep, I think you guys are coming from the same direction that I am. If all goes well..... NWA could be alright! I, like you guys, dont want to work for free and will not but......I want to live to fight again another day. That being said......I am not saying that I am going to work for dirt wages. I believe we have very sharp pilots that can make this happen with the management team. We can do this!!! We just have to be creative. For now......fasten your seat belts. Best wishes to us all. NHBB-----I hope you are right about CO fitting into our ranks. I have thought for years it would be a good fit. I wish the best for my CO buddies.

 

[jbguppy]

I think there are a couple of things going on here.

First, the B787 is a “real deal†(e.g. firm orders for 100+ airplanes) for while the A350 still only exists on paper (a “commitment†for 10). Northwest may have weighed the 2009 delivery date for the B787 against 2010 (at the earliest) for the A350 and decided they simply couldn’t wait that long, particularly with the many new Midwest-Asia nonstops competitors will be starting in the next few years.

Second, NWA may have had doubts about Airbus’s claim that an A330 with new engines and a higher percentage of composite structures (which is what the A350 essentially will be) could match the B787’s operating economics. If history is any guide, Boeing’s products typically perform a little better than advertised (Air France and JAL’s B777-300ERs are burning 0.85% less fuel than predicted), while Airbus’s sometimes fall short.

Finally, Northwest has been looking for additional B747-400s, and Boeing is probably keen on obtaining new orders so they don’t have to decide on closing the production line (per Boeing’s website, there are only orders for eight passenger -400s unfulfilled as of March 2005). NWA probably got a good deal on both by telling Boeing “we’ll order the B787 if you give us some new B747-400s cheap.â€

No matter what the reason, I am absolutely thrilled to see Northwest go with the Boeing product (should the stories prove correct). If the B787 is the “game changer†Boeing promises, it will give NWA a competitive advantage for years to come.

[post="262125"][/post]​

Only if NWA is the only customer to buy it, and if it is as efficient as advertised, and if NWA gets it first.

Thats 3 ifs, combine that with upcoming labor and pension problems, liquidity issues as identified by Moody's and you have a very uncertain prospect at best for receiving, deploying, and making good on that competitive advantage...

JBG

 

[nwa400]

JBG.....

I think everyone on this thread is well aware of the up hill road that NWA has to travel to get to the certainty of flying the 787. I believe that those who work for NWA are trying to look on the positive side. Your input is in my estimation a week effort to try to make someone upset. I believe that we should all look in our own back yard and be well aware that NO airline today is safe before we start telling others that their hopes are for naught. I think it is time that pilots stop trying to bash others hopes and realize that it is ALL our professions that are under attack. Best wishes to us all......

 

[North by Northwest]

"SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Moody's Investor Services on Friday placed Northwest Airlines' (NWAC) long-term debt rating on review for a possible downgrade. Moody's also affirmed the carrier's SGL-2 speculative grade liquidity rating. Moody's said the review was prompted by Northwest's ongoing financial losses and deficit cash flow, and the expectation that continuing difficult business conditions for the airline industry will preclude any meaningful near-term improvement in the carrier's performance." JB, let me clear up a misunderstanding you have regarding the Moody's article. NWA's cash balance is the 2ed highest of the majors with US $2.6 Billion. For our size that is 3!/2 times the reserves of our competitors i.e. United (comparitively). One might "if" till the cows come home about predicting what might come down the road. "you have a very uncertain prospect of receiving, deploying, and making good on that competitive advantage..." One might argue that Ual even exsisting down the road, (due to the very same issues you so gloomly pointed out for NWA) is a far more realistic possibility. I feel a "precious" DC-9 moment coming over me. God I love those little, tough as nails, harden, flying tanks. They will have to make room for the mighty 787 Dreamliner tho...

 

[UALDC767]

The fact that NW placed the order without a contingency," unlike CO " speaks volumes. Whether or not the IAM gives in to the companys requests for give backs remains to be seen. Either way it seems NW is looking beyond this and plans on being around for quite a while. Hopefully steering clear of that"Giant( BK) Pothole" that UA, US are in and DL is headed straight for. Are we possibly seeing some light at the end of the tunnel or is it a locomotive speeding straight at us. Only time wil tell. Good luck to all Legacy Carriers.

[post="262239"][/post]​

As far as I can tell, NWA hasn't announced any order just yet. Potential order, but nothing official. Nothing like tossing that carrot out there to affect the employee mindset. But they have asked for concessions. And not just from the IAM. All employee groups are targets, including ALPA for round #2.

Did CAL management plan on using the order of 787's(plus long ago ordered 757-300's) as a negotiating tool? I don't know, but wouldnt be surprised if they planned on it. Or was it just convienient timing?

Good luck to us all.

DC