New Routes

[JetClipper]

C54,
the problem is that Legacy carriers fly airplanes the same way LCC's do, from airport to airport. There is no divine right to gaining market share because a particular airline is a media darling. Cool animals on the tail and cute commercials are not going to save FRNT from reaping what they have been asking for in DEN for the last several years by kicking UAL while we were down.

AWA and a bunch of others are in TED's sights, UAL is well on the way to becoming an airline that serves international, hub to hub, and transcon traffic efficiently and with very high customer service, while taking a big bite out of those who have taken our market share over the last couple years.

FLY TED!!!

You make it sound as if somehow F9 has out for UA. Trust me, even in their most drunken illusions of grandeur, F9 knows that there is absolutely no way they can have more than a passing impact on United. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that F9 knows the are dealing with the proverbial 900-pound gorilla, and does everything possible to ensure they don't upset it too much.

That being said, F9 is doing what the investing public demands of every publicly-traded company; taking advantage of opportunities to grow. In better times, UAL did this as well (depending on who you talk to, United had a "meanness" about it when dealing with the competition). If they survive the current crisis, I'm sure they'll be back to their old ways in no time.

However, bizarre as it sounds, I think it's in UA's best interest not to attack F9 too agressively, for fear of the DOT, DOJ, and God knows what other alphabet agencies jumping all over them again. I believe United knows this as well.

 

[Fly]

I believe that F9 and UAL should be happy to have each other in DIA. If either were to leave Denver, imagine the possible airlines that could come in there to pick up the slack!!! We should act like feuding siblings (fight all the time, but take care of each other) IMHO

 

[jbguppy]

You make it sound as if somehow F9 has out for UA. Trust me, even in their most drunken illusions of grandeur, F9 knows that there is absolutely no way they can have more than a passing impact on United. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that F9 knows the are dealing with the proverbial 900-pound gorilla, and does everything possible to ensure they don't upset it too much.

That being said, F9 is doing what the investing public demands of every publicly-traded company; taking advantage of opportunities to grow. In better times, UAL did this as well (depending on who you talk to, United had a "meanness" about it when dealing with the competition). If they survive the current crisis, I'm sure they'll be back to their old ways in no time.

However, bizarre as it sounds, I think it's in UA's best interest not to attack F9 too agressively, for fear of the DOT, DOJ, and God knows what other alphabet agencies jumping all over them again. I believe United knows this as well.

With FRNT announcing at every possible opportunity the irrelevance of TED, I think UAL can get a lot more aggressive in COMPETING in Denver.

FLY TED!!!

 

[C54Capt]

jbguppie,

I don't think anyone is going to be kincking anyones but in this environment. That mentality is what got airlines in trouble to begin with. Jet Clipper and Fly have good points. It is better to know your competition and coexist, than to open it up to the unknown. And by the way, I don't intensionally plan to FLY TED, but if TED is going my way, I'd appreciate the ride.

 

[Bigsky]

I believe that F9 and UAL should be happy to have each other in DIA. If either were to leave Denver, imagine the possible airlines that could come in there to pick up the slack!!! We should act like feuding siblings (fight all the time, but take care of each other) IMHO

Fly. I respectively disagree. I think that it would be difficult to take care one another when the other carrier is taking passengers/revenue directly away from your airline. While DIA is a huge market it will become increasingly difficult for UA to see a profit out of the DIA hub as F9 continues to expand their DIA operations. How happy is UA going to be when F9 controls 40% of the market share from DIA?

cheers

bigsky

 

[Bigsky]

C54capt wrote:

I don't think anyone is going to be kicking anyones butt in this environment

Once again I would disagee. This type of environment is when butts get kicked the most. Examples: US and WN in PHL, Airtran and DL in ATL, B6 and CO, DL, AA in JFK and, of course, TED and F9 in DEN.

cheers

bigsky

 

[Light Years]

Although the Carribbean routes are "leisure" destinations, they tend to get higher fares. Ma and Pa Kettle go to Orlando but the folks with a little more to spend go to the islands (particularly from the east coast). US has discovered this and the islands have been great for them. Oddly, for such a regionalized carrier, US Airways does very well on its transatlantic and Carribbean routes- its the short haul domestic market thats gone to the dogs. They simply dont have the widebodies at the moment to begin any more Europe service (this summer will be tight with 11 cities from PHL, plus a few twice-dailies and a few from CLT and PIT).

Therefore much of the growth at Airways in the last few years has been to the islands, where they can increase the stage length as they have desperatly needed to do, command normal fares, face relatively little LCC competition, and find homes for their narrowbodies as they Express most of the traditional network (they went from over 400 a/c to 279 that they are bound to by the unions... they've stated they could get by with little more than a hundred with the advent of "small jets" and RJs ).

United may be doing the same thing as they put replacement jets operated by affiliates on traditional United routes- the mainline planes have to go somewhere, and theres money to be made there... They'll also be able to take advantage of thier partners huge market share there (second only to AA who of course have a hub). While US can offer service from every street corner east of the Mississippi, UA can offer timely connections from the midwest and west (something US's schedules dont permit).

And boy are those layovers fun... oh, the memories... *sigh*

 

[767jetz]

How happy is UA going to be when F9 controls 40% of the market share from DIA?

cheers

bigsky

Actually, bigsky... I disagree.

I don't have the exact link, but I read just last month that Ted has already taken market share back from F9, and that's why they are scared and lobbying heavily against UA.

F9 will never control 40% of DEN (it is DEN by the way, not DIA). I don't believe UA will ever run F9 out of DEN either. But the fact is that F9 is worried (for good reason) about Ted and losing market share already.

 

[C54Capt]

767 jetz,

TED is taking more "Market Share" from United mainline than any other carrier at DEN. F-9s load factor and passenger enplanements have kept pace or grown on the routes TED also serve from DEN. You can get all the facts by reading the minutes to the: Bear Stearns Global Transportation Conference.

Frontier handles about 16% of the pax in DEN, I doubt they expect to command any more than 20% of the market. They are focussing on other mini-hubs for some of their expansion, so 40% of the DEN market is, as the French say, "impossible".

 

[C54Capt]

767 jetz,

Also,I can assure you F-9 is not "scared" or "worried" about TED. They are approaching TED without emotion, and concentrating on providing their own high quality product.

I'm sure that the LCC opposition to UAs ATSB loan is because they don't want to deal with the drunken sailor spending (Shuttle, Avolar, UA acquisition, etc...)that will hurt all carriers. By the way, the lobbing effort by the LCCs pales in comparison to the huge anti-United lobby effort by your friends AA, NWA, CO and the others. Like you say only the LCCs are getting the press right now.

 

[iflyjetz]

Magsau, the CFM56 is a joint venture of Snecma (French) and GE. My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is a GE did most if not all of the engineering on the engines. Having flown Fifi with both engine types, I prefer the CFMs, but the IAE is cheaper and doesn't use as much gas.

I think that we're starting to see a fundamental shift in UAL's business strategy. They have relied on the business traveler; it looks like UAL is now going to go after more leisure travelers. This is where TED will be handy; you don't need first class seats for leisure travelers.
As for the prices of tickets to Caribbean destinations, I wouldn't call them inexpensive. There's money to be made on those packed planeloads of tourists.

 

[exusair99]

The CFM and IAE Pylons not the same If I remember correctly??!!!
IAE=Pratt+MTU of Germany (I think)

 

[Bigsky]

Okay, F9 may never have 40% of the market share in DEN. Maybe some where like 20% to 30% percent would be more realistic. It seemed liked FLY and C54capt were suggesting that there was to be some sort of harmonious relationship between UA and F9 which I find too be quite difficult when they are competing for many of the same passengers.

cheers

bigsky

 

[ClueByFour]

I don't understand why UA is starting service on "vacation" (e.g. low-yield) routes. If I were them (and obviously I'm not, which is why they might know better), I would be investing my metal in beefing-up frequency on higher-yielding "business" routes.

Price the route on US. DCA-SXM starts at around $640 R/t and heads north from there.

 

[SVQLBA]

The CFM and IAE Pylons not the same If I remember correctly??!!!
IAE=Pratt+MTU of Germany (I think)

and UKridge's favorite company, the true heir of Messrs Rolls and Royce, not the pretend outfit masquerading under the name selling increasingly german automobiles under the famed RR.