new premium class amenities

[Buck]

AA's downfall began when some of those at APFA decided they were safety professionals, first, and that serving customers was an inconvenience.

The safety aspect you speak of is generated by the company. There is nothing wrong with being safe, but when it is hammered into you day in and day out, by the company and the FAA etc. it becomes tiresome. At some point safety and customer service will collide.

 

[Barfbag]

When Super Star Crandall purchased the TWA London routes for a mere $700 million from Uncle Carl. Crandall failed to see the obvious, people riding Trans Atlantic wanted to fly 747, not 777. He also failed to purchase TWA's famed Royal Ambassador. Now with the urgings of BAs Sweet Willie,

AA must now play this matchup.

 

[eolesen]

Perhaps, Buck, but what I'm pointing out is when APFA and AFA deliberately tried to shift the perception of flight attendants as being there to provide service, to being "primarily for your safety" at some point in the 1990's.

That, of course, followed years of battle trying to shift to a gender neutral title that wasn't demeaning as stewardess.

Maybe it's just US culture, but for some reason, it's like some FA's are almost ashamed of being in a service related position....

 

[FWAAA]

d eleted

 

[eolesen]

When Super Star Crandall purchased the TWA London routes for a mere $700 million from Uncle Carl. Crandall failed to see the obvious, people riding Trans Atlantic wanted to fly 747, not 777. He also failed to purchase TWA's famed Royal Ambassador. Now with the urgings of BAs Sweet Willie,

AA must now play this matchup.

Almost true, except for the lack of facts....

Fact) AA moved the two hangar queen 74SPs over to JFK to operate the two evening LHR departures to deal with the perception that only serious airlines operated the 747, but found that the maintenance reliability sucked so bad that they had to be replaced with MD11s

Fact) The 777 didn't start flying until four years later, and AA didn't take delivery of theirs until 1999 (eight years later for those playing the home edition)

Fact) All airplanes look the same when you are asleep...

Opinion) Most customers couldn't tell the difference between a MD11 and a 747

Opinion) AA's service on the MD11 was far better than on the 747

Opinion) A good seat & service are far more important to most customers than whose name is on the builder's plate or registration

Opinion) The only reason the SPs survived on DFW-NRT as long as they did was because they had something like 18 hours on the ground when they returned to DFW, and could get all the attention they required. At JFK, they were scheduled a lot tighter. They were lucky to get 8 hours on the ground between LHR turns.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Frank, that was said tongue in cheek. However, I am a strong supporter of participatory management agreements that are negotiated contractually. Board participation and integration into the decision making process for concessions given. Unfortunately, none of the AA unions did that in 2003. It works and there is a stonger buy in for corporate decisions. And its a lot of fun too.

I apologize - normally, I begin that type of comment with [sarcasm] and end it with [/sarcasm] - guess I forgot.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA's downfall began when some of those at APFA decided they were safety professionals, first, and that serving customers was an inconvenience.

Fortunately, not all flight attendants subscribe to that nonsense.

AA's flight attendants have long been considered robotic and indifferent. This doesn't do much to bolster that opinion...

Bob mentioned that WN doesn't have to do any of this to attract customers.

He's right.

But WN isn't competing with BA, SQ, JL, CX, AF, etc. They're competing with the indifference of AA, DL, and UACO.

And frankly, standing in line at the DMV can be an improvement over flying AA, DL, or UACO.

AA can't compete domestically, and you're openly mocked for the abysmal service internationally, so what else is left, guys?...

Full airplanes?

 

[eolesen]

Full airplanes?

Right. As if AA has any pricing power to fill up an airplane at a price that covers their existing cost base....

Go look up break-even load factors, Bob. I think AA is at around 85%, which is unsustainable. Drop prices to fill up the planes, and your BELF will simply go up...

If the FA's can't be bothered to provide somethhing as simple as a turndown service and a higher level of service, how do you expect that anyone in their right mind is going to be willing to pay more for being treated as an inconvenience?...


I skipped over the discussion on the lounges...

Admirals Club still beats sitting at Chilis or on the vinyl seats in the gate holdroom, but internationally, AA is pretty far down the list of best lounges. The Flagship at JFK is better than the Admirals Club, but nowhere near what BA offers in their lounges. As far as ive experienced, at their home airports, QF and CX rank best, followed by BA, JL, IB and then AA followed by RJ and LA.

There isn't a Flagship Lounge at all at DFW, and the one in ORD is too small and also offers Costco style appetizers to their First customers and nothing but cold cheese cubes and sliced veggies to Business Class, where BA has a steam table buffet for their Business Class customers, and menu/waiter service for First... Haven't tried the one in LAX and they closed the one in MIA.

Even at NRT, the only thing available when I visited was prepackaged nuts, cheese, wasabi crisps, and a self-serve bar. Nothing warm, let alone hot or fresh. The JL lounge had sushi, rice, soup, salads, fruit, and some other hot entrees I didn't try out for lack of time.

 

[WorldTraveler]

But WN isn't competing with BA, SQ, JL, CX, AF, etc. They're competing with the indifference of AA, DL, and UACO.

And frankly, standing in line at the DMV can be an improvement over flying AA, DL, or UACO.

since standing at the DMV doesn't get you one square foot closer to your destination than it did when you arrived, no it wouldn't be an improvement.
.
There actually are a whole lot of airline employees at EVERY airline that really do give a rats backside about their job and their companies do in fact try as well.
Americans as a whole are very UNSERVICE friendly, regardless of the industry.
US flight attendants are no less service oriented than most Americans and probably a whole lot more.
.
In all the zeal to talk about how great foreign carrier service is, it is usually not mentioned that they do not have to compete in most of their hub markets with low fare carriers - as the US carriers do. In many airports, they even have rail service at the airport that brings in passengers from all over their home countries. Their airports have much lower volume and numbers of slots so airplane travel IS much more of an experience. Most foreign carriers have much higher percentages of higher yielding international traffic than do US carriers. Finally, nearly every country has realized that the brutal competition that the US government has allowed to decimate the US industry is not something they want - and virtually none have allowed what has happened in the US to be replicated on their doorsteps.

So, comparing foreign carrier service to US carrier service misses some major facts that have made and will continue to make it a whole lot harder for US airlines.
Throw in labor turmoil - again a result of the brutal competitive environment that many other countries have protected their airlines from - and it isn't surprising that normally low standards of service quality falls even lower.
.
Finally, AA does indeed have SOME pricing power left.. that is reflective in the average fares they receive which in some markets are above average. The more ANY airline - WN included - is able to dominate markets, the better they can control the fares they receive.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

At LAST an American carrier is starting to "get it".

AA's seats in the Flagship Suite are just as flat as Cathay Pacific's first class. The real different has always been in the soft product - the service. Adding amenities and touches like this will help differentiate AA from the rest of the pack. Service is a big part of why people like me pay a lot of money to fly premium class across the oceans.

 

[nbmcg01]

At LAST an American carrier is starting to "get it".

AA's seats in the Flagship Suite are just as flat as Cathay Pacific's first class. The real different has always been in the soft product - the service. Adding amenities and touches like this will help differentiate AA from the rest of the pack. Service is a big part of why people like me pay a lot of money to fly premium class across the oceans.

The service barriers faced by flight crews are the reason for perceived lack of service. How many times can one say, "We don't have, it wasn't provisioned, its not working, I hear you but at 39,000 there isn't a lot I can do, that is not a component of our service" before the embarrassment wins out and flat affect becomes the norm. I can''t think of anyone that doesn't WANT to provide good service but you need the tools. If they blended Domestic and International pay to one rate I think you would see the crew make up change but be careful what you wish for...lol

 

[Mach85ER]

Personally, I think in the end the FA's should just provide the service and do their job.

I'm a realist though and realize the corrosive effects of poor leadership provided to the frontline employees ends up creating another argument when something like this (right or wrong) comes up. The comments about giving the FA's the resources to provide a level of service are ignored or maintained poorly. Decisions are also made regarding managements own on-time bonus numbers rather than customer service. I could go on and on about the lies and failure to manage the resources given to the Pilots and the Flight Attendants once they depart the gate. We end up taking it on the chin for the next 2 to 10+ hours.

One example. The entertainment system is dead for a US to Europe flight. The "buck" gets passed around until our esteemed managers decide it's not needed for the 9 hour flight. Those passengers aware are pissed, the FA's are because they realize the complaints coming, and the pilots are pissed because the item wasn't attended to after being written up 5 hours before.

It took the Captain to tell operations the flight wasn't departing until an effort was made to fix it. It was a contractor item (not AA MTX), he showed up, worked for 10 minutes, fixed the system and we departed 20 minutes late. We also arrived early.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

It took the Captain to tell operations the flight wasn't departing until an effort was made to fix it. It was a contractor item (not AA MTX), he showed up, worked for 10 minutes, fixed the system and we departed 20 minutes late. We also arrived early.

That's called "throttle", isn't it?

Sorry about the butt chewing re: gas mileage.

 

[Mach85ER]

That's called "throttle", isn't it?

Sorry about the butt chewing re: gas mileage.

Sorry Frank,

Many more factors play into arriving early than just throttles. I don't remember the exact reason, but tailwind differences and assigned airspeeds play more into arrival times than goin' fast'. The North Atlantic tracks don't allow for much playing catch up. Once your in the group doing .80, .83 is out of the question especially if it's bumpy. Terminal vectors and taxing also eat a big chunk depending on the airport.

Besides the above, as it stands now, this company just imagines they have an economical system. I had a recent flight where my actual burn went over planned. Let me know when accounting figures out the wisdom of a 767-300ER burning two engines while waiting for 3 AMR RJ's to takeoff/land and delay our flight. Same goes for the best altitude and speed adjustments "I'm sorry, not available, company RJ is above you or slowing you up" :blink:

 

[Frank Szabo]

Sorry Frank,

Many more factors play into arriving early than just throttles. I don't remember the exact reason, but tailwind differences and assigned airspeeds play more into arrival times than goin' fast'. The North Atlantic tracks don't allow for much playing catch up. Once your in the group doing .80, .83 is out of the question especially if it's bumpy. Terminal vectors and taxing also eat a big chunk depending on the airport.

Besides the above, as it stands now, this company just imagines they have an economical system. I had a recent flight where my actual burn went over planned. Let me know when accounting figures out the wisdom of a 767-300ER burning two engines while waiting for 3 AMR RJ's to takeoff/land and delay our flight. Same goes for the best altitude and speed adjustments "I'm sorry, not available, company RJ is above you or slowing you up" :blink:

Easy - just being a smartass.

Yep - there's the u/l jet and other stuff to consider besides simply running the motors WFO - you are correct.