My Friend's First Time on Airways--Not a Good Impression

[insp89]

It is not a profit on fuel hedging. LCC reported a larger loss on fuel hedging last year than they actually had.

Loosing only half your rear end, instead of three quarters of it, is not a profit.

Dog Wonder, I am aware that LCC did not have a operating profit this quarter..

It just irritates me that this crazy airline industry has the lee way to move their numbers around from quarter to quarter, so they can paint the picture that suits them.

IMHO, ALL airlines should be required to report their earnings the same way,
Forget about special items this, one time charge that, Blah, Blah, Blah..

 

[Dog Wonder]

Unfortunately, there are some who believe a a paper profit is something else.

 

[Whatnow?]

Perhaps the saddest thing about this tread is that no one has expressed surprise that Art's friend had a bad experience.

Look all airlines, even the SQs, EKs, and VXs of the world have a sour flight here and there.
But, when US has one (or two) for the same customer, nobody is the least bit surprised. How sad.

No I think this is the saddest thing.....When a former FF comes on this message board relays information that was given to him second hand about a flight, not knowing actual facts whether they are erroneous, dramatized, or even embellished and then sits back and let's everybody on this board blast each other and their employer. If you go back through this thread Art started the topic but has not yet once posted again to defend the horrible treatment his friend recieved. Again, this customer may not have been satisfied for whatever reason, but c'mon the original post was not a big deal! And if this customer did not eat on this flight...I find that extremely hard to believe.....there is soo much food on this flight that there is barely an empty compartment anywhere on this aircraft and in addition both hot meal services are catered above and beyond with extra meals. I've worked this trip several times and you should see how much food is thrown out after each service!

I've flown on other carriers, and I can honestly say there is no difference between US and most all of the other major carriers in regards to employee attitudes, aircraft appearance, and even service anymore....they've all declined in every one of those categories. US is not the Airline it was when the Arts and Pineys were here but I've got to tell you from what I've seen out there on OAL's it nearly identical anymore in the Inflight experience category. And I said it earlier, I've had customers on each one of my trips express how nice the TLV flight is and how dissatified they've become flying CAL and DAL out of EWR and JFK......it's all perception that's all and some people are obviuosly more critical and dramatic than others.

 

[Art at ISP]

Whatnow?

I have posted several times since the original post was made. I know the person in question very well, and he doesn't complain unless the issue is valid. If I had ANY questions as to credibility or embellishment I would not have taken it where I did.

Having sat in front of executives from this company (after flying out to PHX on my own dime), and having been completely rebuffed in my efforts to get them to realize that they were losing their bread and butter customers, and offering them relatively easy suggestions on how to reverse the trend, I chose not to give another dime of my money to people who just plain don't want my business. I have not spent DOLLAR ONE on US Airways in over 2 years. I even cancelled the BoA VISA.

Why would I DEFEND bad treatment? There's no way I would. It's unacceptable--regardless of which airline. That said, I STARTED the thread by saying that most of the complaints were no big deal, but some of you blew this thing out of proportion.

The bottom line here is simple. This incident was just another example of what is becoming the norm at US. I feel for the employees--and yes everyone can have a bad day....but why so many bad days at US? BECAUSE of poor management. There is a difference between cost effective and cheap--a distinction the Sandfleas have yet to learn....

Here's a thought.

Treat your employees with respect, show some appreciation for the job they do, and give them a FAIR wage. Employees should be management's FIRST concern.

Then figure out how to take care of your customers...Happy employees are much more likely to make customers happy...when you have happy customers you have repeat customers.....

Enough repeat customers will build revenue to the point where the place MIGHT actually be profitable for real--THEN and ONLY THEN do you have happy investors....

Unfortunately the management at US views this pyramid in reverse--the heck with employees and customers, they are liabilities...how much can we cut to be profitable?

It ain't gonna work.....and the saddest part of all is some of the attitudes expressed by some of you on here--kind of makes my point. Instead of acknowledging a problem or trying to figure out how to fix it, you just attack the messenger.

Sad....just sad......

 

[700UW]

Being one of the senior members here and a prolific poster, I have not always seen eye to eye with Art, but his credibility is never in question my eyes with his good actions and spending his own time and money to make things better for the employees and the passengers.

Whatnow? your way off base here.

 

[Whatnow?]

Being one of the senior members here and a prolific poster, I have not always seen eye to eye with Art, but his credibility is never in question my eyes with his good actions and spending his own time and money to make things better for the employees and the passengers.

Whatnow? your way off base here.

While I won't argue the fact that this company treats it's employees badly which in turn affects the customers. I STILL stand by my point regarding this TLV flight with US. If there is one thing that is going very well and with much attention and focus it is this flight. Having worked this flight several times as a crewmember already this month and talked to customers on these flights I STILL stand by my points made. I know Art's history and I applaud him for all he's done over the years....but this experience in this thread really had nothing to do with him firsthanded and it is indeed different from all of his other postings in the past. BTW, I've been on this message board since 2003, so I been around here long enough to give credit where credit is due!

 

[tea42]

OY VE !!!

What did you expect EL-Al service?

Suzie Boda can't even get this right!

MAybe just decent treatment-for a human DEX...how are you?

 

[Onestep2flt]

I disagree with your assessment , here’s why

First you start off by inferring that our top brass is not doing it’s job and that this is leading to low morale … Our “shopkeeper “ has been and continues to go above and beyond not only the employee’s expectations but the industries as well … While I can’t speak for every worker , I can say that morale is on it’s way up after our second quarter results , it was a pleasant shocker to see that no , us airways is not going to close it’s doors by the end of the year , so in that respect , I give major props to our management team ..

My response
I am not sure where to begin with this. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight. However, I am not sure where you are getting your data from. Your shareholders, customers, and employees don't appear to have the same faith in your leaders. The stock closed at like 2.80 after results were announced. Although that was up like one percent it is still within it's range of 2.50-2.96 and still far below it's 52 week high of 11.24. It is up quite well against it's low of 1.88 but that is not saying much.

US is still loosing it's best customers like Art who has not spent a dime with US for the last two years. Of course US did make a half hearted attempt to tell people they are hard to do business with. This is one of US biggest downfalls is not admitting when you are wrong. There is always blame placed on everybody else. Think Chinese New Year!

Your right in the fact that we can't speak for every worker, I will give you that. But if you really think that morale is improving with the announcement of a paper profit I think you are living in the greatest fairy tale of all. I have got to know some US employees over the years and I can say for certain that morale is at an all time low. Some people I know have been at US as long as I can remember. They have been through many CEO's with many empty promises. I have never heard so many people being openly vocal on how bad the state of things are at US.

As to the other view that us airways is not giving it’s employee’s the tools to do it’s job properly I also disagree , why just today I read an article in the WSJ about how us airways was part of a new trend of companies working to improve customer service in this down economy (it was a subset of the cheese cake improved service article ) .. It talked about the improvements that have been brought about in our companies MBR due to missed luggage because of the new hand scanners that we’ve started using .The article also went on to mention that our year over year customer service score had improved by a large percentage point (in relation to our airline only and it’s past service score ).

My response
I am so glad to see that US is happy with the internal customer service number score. You beat you own worst! The problem is that a recent airline customer service survey still ranks US almost at the bottom only above United and right below China Eastern. China Eastern? Have you flown on them. If they are above US that is saying a lot. So, you may have beat your own score you were below 18 other worldwide airlines and above only one. This is a direct result again of not giving your employees the proper tools, training, and empowerment to complete their jobs. Happy employees means more happy customers. Happy employees means fix things pro actively and not reactively. Dirty airplanes come to mind. You can toot your horn about spending millions refurbing your airplanes, but if you don't keep up with cleaning and maintenance chores it is just more lip service. The new leather seats are nice but already showing wear from non-maintenance.

As to your third point concerning our management and their responsibility to ensure the attitude of our workers , well there’s only so much that they can do .. I’ve seen so much of morale boosting garbage from this company that it’s not even worth recounting (except for the free food , LOVE IT! ) ,anything that they can do within reason to raise morale , they have done … I think what your trending into is the FA issues of contract improvements , and that then boils down to nothing more than “give us more money or we will continue to give horrible customer service : which is in my view akin to blackmail ..

My response
Are you serious? Negotiating a fair and tangible contract is blackmail? Meanwhile back at the ranch there are bonuses all around for management for job poorly done. Horrible customer service is the result of working in a bad work environment without the proper tools to do one's job. They don't care because it is obvious that management does not care either. As I said before, Happy employees means happy customers. Yes there are some bad employees that no matter what you do for them it will not change their attitudes. I am well aware that management can't make these folks have a good attitude. Leading by example is a good start to these changes though. I am not sure why you singled out flight attendants as this goes for all employees.

As to your point about our employee’s ratting on our company by saying something like “"I am sorry that this happened to you, I would like to say it is a rare event but unfortunately it is not". Let’s be realistic , no company does that , do you think when you eat at taco bell and complain about the food the workers are going to say to you “ sorry about the poor food , we’ve been having really bad problems and the health department is a hairs breath from shutting us down “ .. that’s just bad for business ..

My response
Being honest is one of the best business practices that has long been forgotten in the airline business. You and I are talking about two different things though. The example you give is ridiculous at best because if there were serious violations with the health department at taco bell that would be on the evening news as it is very public information. Same goes for your airline. You would not have to say anything about FAA fines for engine failures or warped wings because the news media would have already made that front page news for days. I am talking about customer service issues that your management has failed to fix even after the employees and customers have continued to bring them to light. Employees must use good judgment and I am sure that if it was a safety issue they themselves would not be on the airplane!

While our company may have the same problems happen over and over again , that’s simply because we are a world wide airline and things won’t always function 100% all of time , we get a lot of wear and tear on our A/C from use , and while we do our best to correct the issues we find , not everything can be done in a timely manner .. I think however you are discounting some of our more impressive A/C repair gains , our planes are now cleaner and more functional than at the time of our merger and I believe that this trend will continue ..

My response
Nobody expects 100% but that is what you should strive to achieve. As I said before there are truly some positive changes such as aircraft cleanliness. But it takes preventative maintenance to keep it looking new. Slapping a seat cover on and proclaiming a major milestone is hardly a earth shattering event. US has a very long way to go if they wish to win back customers like Art or any number of high yielding customers. Remember what I said before, I travel US because I sometimes have no other choice, not because I want to. It is unfortunate as I like to be a loyal customer as the relationship usually benefits both party's. I have shopped the same car dealership for years because I know that when something goes wrong they will do everything in their power to make it right. In return they know I will be back with more money and I have sent people to them with their money. Kind of funny that you can trust a car dealer more than an airline with loyalty in this economic climate. Most of the employees I have come in contact with have been nothing short of professional, but when you travel a lot that is not the only consideration.

In closing , I think that the smiles are coming much like the proverb of the turtle and the hare it’s going to take more time , but slowly if ever surely , we will win that race ….

My response
We are well aware that change does not come overnight. You need to give your tortoise some better running shoes. It has been four years since a merger with America West and you still have not completed that. Your CEO is actively calling for more consolidation. I think leaving this merger incomplete before merging with someone else appears a clear statement of failure on his part.

Start showing some tangible changes and I and many other may become loyal followers. This is already a long post so I will not continue on. There is enough reading here and other places like flyer talk to keep you busy for hours.

I hope this is readable as I can't figure out how to quote individual sentences or paragraphs and the reply to them

 

[DarkSnowyNight]

Okay, just my two cents worth..
I don't care if you are 22 years old, 66 years old, been here 45 years, or 20 years. You are a flight attendant, and there is no excuse to be rude and unprofessional.
Blame management????? NO! I don't think so..
There a lot of fa's that would love the opportunity to fly to Tel Aviv, London, maybe even Boise, IDAHO.
The point is, all pax should be treated nicely, respectfully, and have some sense of validation, and care from the flight attendant.
Doug Parker has you on the payroll, but bottom line, the CUSTOMER is PAYING YOUR SALARY!!! Yes the morale, our pay, schedules, all need major improvements. But taking it out on the flying public is not the answer.
I have bad days, believe me. If I have been unfriendly to a passenger, I always apologize, and let them know, I am human, I do get grumpy, and have longs days, etc. Sometimes, a little empathy, and just saying "sorry" go a long way to make the customer feel better. Especially a warm smile.
Bash me all you want, but I am sick of people blaming management for bad attitudes. We are in the customer service business, and are there for safety. If you can't handle being nice, retire, or move on to another field. JMHO. 🙂

It's a real shame the aren't more like you out there. I am on furlough now and happen to work in a location where I run across a large number of both US & AA FA's. I can say that I have had some very interesting and occasionally insightful conversations, and met some pretty neat people in the process. But I have also noticed a disturbing trend,particularly among the higher senority crowd.

It seems there is a real entittlement mentality among a lot of domestic FAs. Having done this job myself in the distant past, I have no usions that it is a tough job at times. But it is also a great job that those not yet fired by this economy ought to be a lot more appreciative of. Free travel, finishing one's day in new or exotic places, and taking home a lot more money than jobs of similar skill would bring outside of an airline are good things. For every bad attitude I see blamed on Management, I can add without fear of contradiction one more perspective to the list of those in need of adjustment.

You are right. The Customer pays the salary. And all the whinning and excuse making in the world won't bring one more dollar to the airline when someone decides "US employees a bunch of out-of-touch babies. Hell if they'll see any more of my money!" I just wish more people saw this very basic fact as asuch instead of something in need of a union supported arguement.

 

[Whatnow?]

Whether it be third hand or fourth hand information it doesn't change the basic point. BTW I did take the liberty of forwarding the information to my contact and someone from pretty far up the food chain will be contacting the customer to get the full story.

This particular individual has little or no time for rude support staff. This particular person does give a damn about customers. I don't know how many others in US, Director and above do but this one does.

A thought came over me that sent a chill. Could you be the F/A in question who was less then friendly to Art's colleague? Seems odd that you show up AFTER this has been percolating a few days and after my contact got the info and mentioned speaking to InFlight? Just curious is all and with all of this attention how come we hear about all manner of SNAFU's.

Nice try Bob...but "NO" I'm not the F/A mentioned in Art's story! LOL 😀 And the reason for me not posting is because I work, or better yet fly, and I'm not home to access the internet for days at a time...nor do I want to. I read Art's original post to this thread and basically shrugged it off....as to no big deal! Then I started reading the additional post days later and was frankly quite suprised that this thread was still going on and on over this mild situation. I added my 2 cents worth because collectively this month I've already spent over 75 hours on this particular flight to/from TLV......and have not once encountered anything Art had originally mentioned. In over 20 years of flying I've always respected the fact that the customer comes first even in the trying times we've had here at US. I'm also knowledgable enough about my job to question why these situations actually happened onboard this particular flight.

I'm not sure what your last statement means regarding the snafu's??

 

[Dog Wonder]

Did you notice every time you post on this thread you don't like, it goes to the top of the page.

Then more people read it.

 

[Whatnow?]

I get a lot of what is anecdotal info from various sources that indicate that despite the attention there are still way to many screw-ups on what is a very importatnt route for US Airways.

Google the phrase "US Airways Complaints" and you get 277,000 hits. Some customers are even compelled to create their own web sites. You should have seen the one I saw today! If the stuff on that site is 50% accurate at least one head should roll.

Just to pat myself on the back I found out about this guys web site from another FFOCUS member and I reached out to my contact and in LESS THEN THREE HOURS, the issue was resolved to the customers satisfaction.

So we know for a fact that there is at least ONE person in US Airways who truly cares about customers. I have to say I was impressed, very impressed. I still have my doubts due to comments made by Senior Management over the years. However US stepped up to the plate and did the right thing. I also know they reached out to Art's colleague and took the issue seriously.

Besides I was just tweaking you "What Now".

I've been off/on this message board for almost 7 years now and basically have stopped reading the message boards because of all the negativity as of late. I remember when I first joined everybody on here was truly concerned if US was going to survive after 9/11 and the mood and attitude on here was completely different. There are not many of the original posters left on here anymore but occasionally a few will pop up and post. I'm not sure I can stomach reading the google site....but never would have thought to google that. I can only imagine what's on there! 😱
I know you weren't attacking me.....I've ready many, many, many of your post and I know where you stand in regards to US and it's employees....no worries!

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

I get a lot of what is anecdotal info from various sources that indicate that despite the attention there are still way to many screw-ups on what is a very importatnt route for US Airways.

Google the phrase "US Airways Complaints" and you get 277,000 hits. Some customers are even compelled to create their own web sites. You should have seen the one I saw today! If the stuff on that site is 50% accurate at least one head should roll.

Tried it. Not that any of us needs yet another forum to take up time, but cm across this one:

http://www.airlinecomplaints.org/forumdisplay.php?f=147

 

[SS255]

I've been off/on this message board for almost 7 years now and basically have stopped reading the message boards because of all the negativity as of late. I remember when I first joined everybody on here was truly concerned if US was going to survive after 9/11 and the mood and attitude on here was completely different. There are not many of the original posters left on here anymore but occasionally a few will pop up and post.

I didn't discover this board until some of my Flyertalk friends begged me to post something very encouraging during the 2004 Christmas Baggage Meltdown -- which I did -- and it was much appreciated by the employees in this forum. (I was warned to post at my own risk, by the way. ) But I do remember that on Flyertalk we were a very cultlike group, and extremely loyal to US. I came across Flyertalk as a result of Black Tuesday in 2002, and even though this was during the dark post-9/11 era, we kept flying US because we wanted to see the company stay in business.

It is truly sad to see how negative Flyertalk has become. The US forum used to be the friendliest airline forum on that board......and now it's the exact opposite, with people having to actually defend themselves because they choose to fly US. How sad is that? And how sad is it that most of the people who supported US during both bankruptcies have moved on to other carriers?

 

[freedom]

Hello one step2flt


Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post .. Please bear with my posting style because I also do not know how to break up a quoted thread line by line .


My response
I am not sure where to begin with this. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight. However, I am not sure where you are getting your data from. Your shareholders, customers, and employees don't appear to have the same faith in your leaders. The stock closed at like 2.80 after results were announced. Although that was up like one percent it is still within it's range of 2.50-2.96 and still far below it's 52 week high of 11.24. It is up quite well against it's low of 1.88 but that is not saying much.

US is still loosing it's best customers like Art who has not spent a dime with US for the last two years. Of course US did make a half hearted attempt to tell people they are hard to do business with. This is one of US biggest downfalls is not admitting when you are wrong. There is always blame placed on everybody else. Think Chinese New Year!

Your right in the fact that we can't speak for every worker, I will give you that. But if you really think that morale is improving with the announcement of a paper profit I think you are living in the greatest fairy tale of all. I have got to know some US employees over the years and I can say for certain that morale is at an all time low. Some people I know have been at US as long as I can remember. They have been through many CEO's with many empty promises. I have never heard so many people being openly vocal on how bad the state of things are at US.


First of all , concerning the stock price …. I’d like to start off by pointing out that all airline stocks are considerably lower than they were some time ago …From what I’ve been able to gather after reading the google finance page for LCC , our investors have lots of confidence in our management and in our airline . I won’t try to explain the variances in our stock prices but I think we all understand that the greater economic picture has been effecting stock price ..

I don’t believe that us airways is still losing it’s best customers , I think that our supposed best customers left long ago , say oh right after the merger when our plane cabins were dirty and overhead compartments had to be shut with duck tape .. I’d be willing to bet you that anyone who’s stayed with us since that time is probably still here .. Since the merger we’ve improved our ETA , our on board food , and our missed baggage ratio , not to mention we now fly to more destinations .

There has been serious improvement at our company since the merger , I contend that not only have we retained customers , but that we have added them due to the new cost conscious environment .

I am so glad to see that US is happy with the internal customer service number score. You beat you own worst! The problem is that a recent airline customer service survey still ranks US almost at the bottom only above United and right below China Eastern. China Eastern? Have you flown on them. If they are above US that is saying a lot. So, you may have beat your own score you were below 18 other worldwide airlines and above only one. This is a direct result again of not giving your employees the proper tools, training, and empowerment to complete their jobs. Happy employees means more happy customers. Happy employees means fix things pro actively and not reactively. Dirty airplanes come to mind. You can toot your horn about spending millions refurbing your airplanes, but if you don't keep up with cleaning and maintenance chores it is just more lip service. The new leather seats are nice but already showing wear from non-maintenance.


My points on this are

1. When your trying to improve yourself , you can’t constantly compare yourself to others , the first step to improvement is to focus on attainable goals , if we need to set our goals against our own performance from the last year then as long as we are making progress we’re on the right path

2. As to the employee’s not being given the proper tools I disagree , like I stated the WSJ gave our company honorable mention for it’s rolled out use of the hand scanners .. While I don’t work upstairs , if their giving us fancy new tools in order to better do our jobs I’m sure the same applies above wing as well …( kiosks come to mind )

3. {employee morale} I’m happy ( until they fire me over the sick policy , in which case I will be VERY unhappy ) I think that as time goes on , our workers as emotionally distraught as they are over pay and negotiated contract positions will come to value their jobs more as they see the world around them .( see post within this thread from the furloughed fellow ) .Don’t get me wrong , I really feel for our reserves , our pilots and block holders ,however I am and always have been a realist … it is how it is …

Are you serious? Negotiating a fair and tangible contract is blackmail? Meanwhile back at the ranch there are bonuses all around for management for job poorly done. Horrible customer service is the result of working in a bad work environment without the proper tools to do one's job. They don't care because it is obvious that management does not care either. As I said before, Happy employees means happy customers. Yes there are some bad employees that no matter what you do for them it will not change their attitudes. I am well aware that management can't make these folks have a good attitude. Leading by example is a good start to these changes though. I am not sure why you singled out flight attendants as this goes for all employees.

Being a customer I don’t think you understood my reference to blackmail … I’ll be frank , as airline workers , when we aren’t making progress towards getting a new contract we underperform on purpose . So for instance being a baggage handler if I wanted to show the company that we were serious about getting a new contract I might “accidentally miss bags “ or in the case of flight attendants be rude .. Oh and on the point of the bonuses and leading by example , if my memory serves me correctly didn’t doug parker decline stock or salary last year ? He took some sort of personal hit to improve the morale of the troops ..

Being honest is one of the best business practices that has long been forgotten in the airline business. You and I are talking about two different things though. The example you give is ridiculous at best because if there were serious violations with the health department at taco bell that would be on the evening news as it is very public information. Same goes for your airline. You would not have to say anything about FAA fines for engine failures or warped wings because the news media would have already made that front page news for days. I am talking about customer service issues that your management has failed to fix even after the employees and customers have continued to bring them to light. Employees must use good judgment and I am sure that if it was a safety issue they themselves would not be on the airplane!

My taco bell example was extreme , my point was that it’s simply wrong to do or say anything that would drive the customer away … our business is to make money , not alienate it ..

Nobody expects 100% but that is what you should strive to achieve. As I said before there are truly some positive changes such as aircraft cleanliness. But it takes preventative maintenance to keep it looking new. Slapping a seat cover on and proclaiming a major milestone is hardly a earth shattering event. US has a very long way to go if they wish to win back customers like Art or any number of high yielding customers. Remember what I said before, I travel US because I sometimes have no other choice, not because I want to. It is unfortunate as I like to be a loyal customer as the relationship usually benefits both party's. I have shopped the same car dealership for years because I know that when something goes wrong they will do everything in their power to make it right. In return they know I will be back with more money and I have sent people to them with their money. Kind of funny that you can trust a car dealer more than an airline with loyalty in this economic climate. Most of the employees I have come in contact with have been nothing short of professional, but when you travel a lot that is not the only consideration.

I too agree that it’s important to strive for high goals .. But I also feel that cost considerations must come into play .. If we lose money by having the best customer service in the air then it becomes counter productive to our business model .from where I stand we must make sure that we have reasonable customer service levels , once achieved they should be maintained , I think that the customer service levels set out by Art and others are no longer in line with our new and combined companies business model . (in other words they are nostalgic for the old , bankrupt us airways )


My response
We are well aware that change does not come overnight. You need to give your tortoise some better running shoes. It has been four years since a merger with America West and you still have not completed that. Your CEO is actively calling for more consolidation. I think leaving this merger incomplete before merging with someone else appears a clear statement of failure on his part.

Start showing some tangible changes and I and many other may become loyal followers. This is already a long post so I will not continue on. There is enough reading here and other places like flyer talk to keep you busy for hours.

I hope this is readable as I can't figure out how to quote individual sentences or paragraphs and the reply to them


We have completed our merger , our reservations system runs on one program , we have a single operating certificate , our planes and uniforms are now matching etc … The only areas in which we aren’t one airline are the labor contracts , and in those cases it’s not the company that’s to blame but the respective work groups ..

Us airways HAS made tangible changes since the inception of the merger , the sad fact is that we only tout our on-time performance and MBR , the other truth is that when it comes to remembering the bad vs. remembering the good , people in general tend to remember the bad even if vastly outweigh by the good ..