MRTC vs. TV

[Connected1]

The debate is MRTC vs. TV - not what makes JetBlue successful. The point that Airlines9 makes is classic union propaganda that leads us down the path of "the way to make employees happy is to pay them well and give them more time off and, by the way, have I mentioned that management sucks?" Let''s stick to the topic, lest this thread be taken over by rants from RV4 and Bob Owens.

 

[DCAflyer]

 

[JS]

Would I pay more for a movie on an airplane? No!

Would I pay more for live TV on an airplane? No!

Would I pay more for 1.5 inches more legroom? No!

Would I pay more for a meal? Maybe a few bucks.


Of the first three crappy options, the last one I would want is TV at every seat. The thought of being in a sea of idiot boxes is a scary one. So, that means you won't see me on a JetBlue flight.

I get enough TV at home as it is. Flying gives me a chance to get *away* from TV!

Mga707 said it best -- books are quite handy!

 

[Airlines9]

JetBlue isnt just about Live TV. JBLUs'' most profitable route is JFK-SJU and there isnt any Direct TV available there. What makes JetBlue so hugely popular, 80%+ load factors, is what they call the, "JetBLue Experience." Thats something that AA or any other airline cant copy. It begins with a phone call to res. You get a very happy person who is working from home. To check in with a very friendly agent. To a F/A grabbing your bag as soon as you walk on the plane and stowing it for you. The roomy leather seats that are an inch wider then the Boeing product and the leg room is good. Im 6''2" and with the seat in front of me fully recline I still have a few inches of space. The Live TV is nice, especially on MCO flights for the kids, but what makes JetBLue is the people.

Will we ever see Arpey working a flight each week talking to his customers one on one? Will he load bags with the handlers to see how they are doing. Does he meet every new employee? No. JetBlue corporate structure is set from top to bottom to make every, "Crewmember," as employees are called, HAPPY! What a concept. Happy employees make customers happy. This isnt a "novelty," that will wear off. This is a revolution in the airlines that will shake up the entire industry. Its hard to believe that JetBlue only has 42 planes flying. The way everyone talks about them you would think they had hundreds. They don’t now but will soon.

Just talk to anyone who has flown JetBlue and they say that they LOVED the experience. All over NY,LGB & FLL you hear people say how much they love JBLU. Its not about the TV.

JBLU has plans for ORD,BOS, & TX. Every plane is overwater qualified. Watch out AA your Carribean fortress may soon come under attack.

There is no doubt that JetBlue is here to stay and that it isnt a novelty that will wear off in time. You cant keep adding a new plane every couple of weeks and still maintain a 80%+ load factor if you werent doing something right. Making a good profit with an over 15% margin during the worst of times, who knows what they will do during the good times. What has worn off is the old majors way of running their airlines and treatment of their customers & employees. At JetBlue everyone, customer & employee alike , is treated equally. That is something that AA & others will never do.

Remember MRTC vs TV played out on the JFK-OAK route. Even though AA was offering a cheaper rate people stuck with JetBlue and AA ran away. Same thing with JFK-FLL. Delta Express lost that one too. It isnt just my MTV.

#9

 

[Connected1]

I didn''t realize that I was posting in the internet equivalent of Sun City! Well, let me tell you folks, there is a whole generation out there that was virtually raised by the television and soon there will be another generation that was raised by the internet. Having live television and internet in every seat would be like having a little family reunion for them. Right or wrong, having those things on the airplane will help us increase our market share (notice that I didn''t say "fare").

Now we can sit around here and act like the "motor carriage" is a fad, or we can update our aircraft. Don''t let the fact that we''re a 75+ year old company stand in the way.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/14/2003 8:56:48 AM Connected1 wrote:

Well, let me tell you folks, there is a whole generation out there that was virtually raised by the television and soon there will be another generation that was raised by the internet. Having live television and internet in every seat would be like having a little family reunion for them.
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Rather sad when you think about it. I mean, in the good old days, you used to get on an airplane with a good book on your way to the family reunion. Now, just getting on the plane and sitting in front of the TV is all the reunion that they need. But the internet access is great...rather than actually strike up a verbal conversation with their seatmate, they can send a series of IM''s to them instead. Technology is great in many ways, but I''m afraid future generations will be a bunch of squinty eyed geeks.

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[FrugalFlyer]

Maybe I''m old fashioned (and I''m still under 30) but I just don''t see the attraction or the need for TV on an airplane, unless the flight is transcon or tran-atlantic, etc.

Whatever happenned to reading a book? A newspaper? A magazine? A comic book? What kind of a parent are you if you need a TV to keep your kids under control on a flight? Give them a coloring book, or a story book, or just paper and crayons. Or for goodness sake, use the opportunity on the flight to teach your kids something (for example, get an atlas and show them where you are flying to, what states you are flying over, etc, etc. etc.). Just plucking down in your seat and turning on the TV is mind wasting.

I remember when I used to go on vacation with my parents. I would get on a plane, window seat ofcourse, and be looking out the window to see what the people on the ground were doing & the other planes. I would remain glued to the window during the entire taxing and take-off. Then it was time to test the window shade, overhead light, tray table, FA call button, arm rest, check the inflight mag and barf bag, etc. Then the mandatory trip to the bathroom. Then it was time for airline snacks and drink. Followed by mandatory trip to bathroom (this time it was for real). Then time to get out the Transformers toy or GI JOE. And soon it was time to land. Now that was fun! Once I even got a peek at the cockpit in flight!

If you''re an adult, surely you can bring some work with you on the plane. IF you don''t want work, then bring your CD player, etc. - or just plain do nothing or go to sleep! If you''re a teenager going to Florida on a spring break with your friends you should have plenty to talk about instead of watching TV.

If you require a TV on a airplane, then have it available in business / first class and require the passenger to pay some premium for it. On short hop flights there is no need. On long haul flights, maybe it might be nice, but there is already in-flight entertainment (although content usually is lame), and the extra legroom on a 8hr flight (even an inch or so) is a lot better / makes the flight so much more comfortable than TV.

If I were to pay a premium I would certainly choose MRTC vs TV.

 

[DLFlyer31]

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On 5/14/2003 10:36:34 AM FrugalFlyer wrote:

If I were to pay a premium I would certainly choose MRTC vs TV.

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What if an airline gave you all three... extra legroom, TV and the ability to buy food? That would be what DL is doing with Song...whether or not it works remains to be seen.

I''ll admit I don''t see the big deal about TV. It''s nice, but not a necessity by any means. However as Connected1 pointed out, more and more people expect TV and now internet wherever they go.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/14/2003 9:12:04 AM Connected1 wrote:

The debate is MRTC vs. TV - not what makes JetBlue successful. The point that Airlines9 makes is classic union propaganda that leads us down the path of "the way to make employees happy is to pay them well and give them more time off and, by the way, have I mentioned that management sucks?" Let''s stick to the topic, lest this thread be taken over by rants from RV4 and Bob Owens.

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Sticking to the topic??

That would be a first for USAviation.com.

On B6''s success or failure. If I had a nickel for every startup that looked great in its first two years but crashed and burned (figuratively) before its fifth birthday, well, I''d have a bunch of nickels.

Back to the topic: Once AA''s cash flow turns positive, and they are out of the woods, I fully expect to see some interactive entertainment/connectivity - plus MRTC. Will that cause AA to succeed and B6 to fail? Probably not. But lots of rich folks (and expense account junkies) still like reclining in J or F when flying transcons. And B6 doesn''t have that.

Further, plenty of people already carry their own IFE, be it DVD players, books, magazines, etc. But like eolesen said - it''s hard to give yourself extra seat pitch once on board. And plenty of taller people realize that.

I have some short family members (even though I am tall). Does MRTC matter to them as much as me? Of course not.

But various studies have shown that there may be a correlation between height and business success. Why does that matter? As long as AA targets business travelers as part of its business plan, those travelers (who just might be taller than your average vacationer) might enjoy the ability to cross their legs and use their laptops or DVD players. And that''s just another reason why MRTC makes sense.

 

[Diesel8]

Stephen Wolf is pretty tall

 

[mga707]

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On 5/14/2003 8:56:48 AM Connected1 wrote:

I didn't realize that I was posting in the internet equivalent of Sun City! Well, let me tell you folks, there is a whole generation out there that was virtually raised by the television and soon there will be another generation that was raised by the internet. ----------------​

Why, you whippersnapper! (shaking my cane)
In the immortal words of Homer Simpson (see, I do know about TV): "The Internet? Is that thing still around?"
You kids today, with your gansta rap and your baggy pants and your Internet...
Sun City rocks! (but not as much as Sun City West...)

 

[JS]

I''m not old (not even close!) ... just old-fashioned!

 

[DCAflyer]

I actually tried to post this yesterday and for some reason it didn’t take.
I have to say that I think a lot of you are in denial about jetBlue. Is it the be all and end all airline? No, of course not. No airline is. But I have done some research on jB and, even though I’ve never flown them, I am pretty impressed with their product and corporate structure. I know several people who have flown on jB and they like the airline. I will outline why I am impressed, and why the Big-6 hub and spoke airlines, as well as LUV, should be concerned.
First, jB’s founder and CEO, Dave Neeleman, was an executive at LUV and fired by Herb. If you want to see a great business plan, just find someone who was in the inner-circle of a company with a good business plan, fired, and held to a five-year no-compete clause in a contract (affording an opportunity to plan, plan, plan!). Neeleman took the effective elements of LUV and vastly improved them. He is effectively eliminating a lot of the little inconveniences of LUV… the cattle calls, the seat pitch, the secondary airports, the short hops, and the complete lack of frills. Essentially, jB is a low-cost carrier with all the bells and whistles except a first-class compartment.
jB has a fleet of 41 A-320 aircraft. Future growth within the airline has wiggle room with respect to the fleet, because the airline can easily put in a mix of smaller A-319 and larger A-321, keeping cockpit and galley commonality. The Airbus 320 family boasts a fuselage which is 11 inches wider than its Boeing 373 counterpart, and, if memory serves, is about 20 percent lighter. This translates to significant savings in fuel (a real positive given the FAA’s recent revisitation of weight-and-balance guidelines) and increased seat width. jB is poised to accept delivery of 12 additional aircraft this year and has a total outstanding Airbus order of 123 jets.
jetBlue recognizes that its biggest asset is its employees. That is why it pays and treats them well. It allows its phone center staff to work from home (thereby giving the airline significant savings in office rent, staff can work in their underwear and avoid commutes). I can’t speak to pay for other work groups, but as for inflight, the pay at jB is about 15-25 percent higher than US Airways was prior to concessions, depending on how many hours the flight attendant works. Basically, flight attendants can fly as much as they are legal for. After the 70-hour minimum, pay jumps up to time and a half. Some of you might be asking how they can do this when the Big-6 are laying off and reducing salaries. Well, just think about it… fewer people on they payroll equates to savings in benefits and training, training center staff, recruiting staff, and administrative staff. Flight attendants are happy to work and make the extra money and they aren’t on the brink of poverty. So here, in just two of the major work groups, they’ve made their staff happy and come up with ways to save money at the same time.
In barely three years since it’s inaugural flight, jB now offers service to 22 cities including SJU. It’s current route structure, unlike LUV, is predominantly medium- to long-haul. Only a handfull of its flights are less than 500-miles, and the majority exceed 1000 miles. This equates to more time in the air and less money spent on landing fees.
Now, let’s look at passenger comfort and inflight services. As discussed above, jB’s seats are wider than typical seats on Boeing narrow-body aircraft. They also appear to be "cushier" because they are leather seats. I don’t know what jB’s seat pitch is, but comparing it to the single class US Airways Shuttle configuration on the A320, which have spacious 33-34" pitch and 150 seats (as compared to jB’s 162 seats), and considering that most likely one of the forward galleys isn’t in the jB configuration, I am inclined to think that jB has fairly generous pitch.
As for the TV, I know some folks have downplayed their significance, saying "well, I have a my laptop with DVD." Good point, but not everyone has them. And you might have it, but what if you are flying with your two kids. Do they? Did you have time to stop by Blockbuster and rent DVDs for the trip? What if you don’t return until after your DVD’s are due? Well, jB has come up with the answer… 24 channel Satellite TV complete with NBC, CNBC, the History Channel, Nickelodian/Nick at Nite, ESPN, hell, they even showed the Olympics! Shows to entertain the kids… and believe me this helps ensure that you don’t have some cranky eight-year-old sitting behind you kicking your seat all the way from JFK to OAK. And while there is no argument from me that flight time can serve as quality time with your kids, the fact of the matter is not everyone is a good parent. Parents have their heads in the books completely oblivious that Junior is being a pain in the @ss to other passengers and crew (and, quite frankly, parents don’t care these days). Even if the parents are attentive and conversing with their kids, do you want to hear them during the entire five hour flight? Or if you are travelling alone and trying to read a book, and there are loud people near you and it's difficult to tune them out, you now have an option. I've worked flights where the kids are in the back of the plane while Mom and Dad are in the first class cabin boozing it up. Satellite TV would keep the kids occupied. In the most uncomfortable of seats and seat positions, television can make people forget that they are in such cramped space. The TVs also mean that passengers are less likely to require the attention of the cabin crew. The cabin will be quieter because fewer people will be talking and kids aren’t screaming.
Now is TV going to make the 6’4" guy choose jB over AA? Probably not. But if jB is half the cost, he’ll probably go with the cheaper fare and consider himself lucky that he has something to take his mind off being cramped. As for other airlines installing satellite TV, yes, that could happen, but not soon. Unions will fight it because there are still people out on furlough and the remaining employees are still suffering the effects of the considerable concessions which were forced upon us. U just got out of bankruptcy, UAL is in, and AA is on the brink. I think it will be a while before other airlines get this amenity.
The way I see it, jB is a force to be reckoned with. I say this because they have come up with a great product, made it cost-effective, made it something passengers like, and keep their employees happy. They are well funded and publicly traded. They are taking on the other LCC’s by offering a superior product. They are taking on the Big-6 by offering a superior product and doing it cheaply. They don’t have unions telling them that they must have a mechanic push the plane back. Their timing is good because they are able to get favorable financing terms at a time when the Big-6 are parking aircraft at MHV. As the Big-6 are giving up gates, jB is able to pick some of them up, at some of the most advantageous airports. In just over three years, they serve about 40% of the number of cities LUV has grown to in 30 years. They don’t get folks from OAK to ISP by bouncing them from runway to runway… they get them from OAK to JFK nonstop, in comfortable seats with inflight entertainment and happy, well rounded and appreciative cabin crews.
Don’t underestimate jetBlue.

 

[FWAAA]

Now AA plans to offer no TV OR MRTC on its 757s or A-300s. Why would anyone choose AA over B6 now?

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 5/21/2003 9:44:30 AM FWAAA wrote:

Now AA plans to offer no TV OR MRTC on its 757s or A-300s. Why would anyone choose AA over B6 now?

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1) The availability of F for those who want to upgrade
2) a real FF plan as opposed to TrueBleu
3) Fewer kids in coach? If TV is so important to families with small children, then let 'em all flock to Jetblue...

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DCAFlyer wrote:

First, jB’s founder and CEO, Dave Neeleman, was an executive at LUV and fired by Herb. If you want to see a great business plan, just find someone who was in the inner-circle of a company with a good business plan, fired, and held to a five-year no-compete clause in a contract (affording an opportunity to plan, plan, plan!).

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You need to get your facts straight...

Herb bought Morris Air in 1993. Neeleman stayed with WN for less than six months, and probably didn't have time to be considered as part of the inner-circle at WN as you called it. Neeleman says he quit, others say he was paid to leave. The non-compete clause was part of his contract when Morris was bought by WN, so whether he quit or was fired, the clause was binding enough that he didn't challenge it.

He also didn't spend time "planning, planning, planning" but was busy building up WestJet in Canada, which was a Morris clone, and exactly why non-compete clauses exist in contracts at the executive level.