Mechanics Fable

[UAL777flyer]

mastermechanic,

Do you think you're the only human being ever to have served in the military? Apparently, you do.

Why in the world do you think I'm petrified? Is it because I've been through 2 airline bankruptcies and I know what will happen? I'm not petrified, I'm just a realist.

If you received two job offers than do us all a favor and take them, along with your constant complaining. I mean someone as marketable as you surely shouldn't be wasting away your career potential at UA. I wish you the best of luck. Will life go on if UA fails? Of course it will. But some of us would like UA to be around for awhile. Some of us would like to see us turn things around so we can all enjoy some security and prosperity. Some of us aren't quitters. You're the first marine I've ever come across who's willing to throw in the towel when the going gets tough. If you're fed up with UA, then leave. But don't drag this company down with your lousy attitude when the rest of us are trying to keep this airline going.

If you'd like to know where I work and what I do, then send me a private message and we can continue that off-topic discussion.

 

[spacewaitress]

Reply to 777 remarks:

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On 9/4/2002 11:56:26 AM

Spacewaitress,

So what's your answer? Continue to whine and complain and criticize and do nothing constructive to help this company while we keep on bleeding to death? Yeah, that's a better alternative I guess.
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Listen, you have made it abundantly clear that you want to roll over and give whomever whenever whatever they want. I respectfully disagree. I think that agreements can, will, and must be made, but it's going to take some hard bargaining. I resent your putting words in my mouth just because I disagree. You continually make erroneous assumptions and judgements regarding my (and others) stance. You want absolute compliance and agreement (especially with your own point of view). Get over it, the situation is fluid and we will all have some hard choices to make soon...but not presently.

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...that doesn't mean we can't give him our full support until he proves that he's not worthy of it. He is the guy running this company now. Does it really make any sense to go against him until he wins us over?
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Where have I said I recommend "going against" the man. I specifically said I have an open mind and reserve judgement.

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What good does that do when we're faced with our most critical challenge ever? How deeply in denial are you over our financial situation?
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Again, you are assuming I'm in denial re: our finances. I have a lot of years and sweat invested in this company. I'm very informed. It's incredible to me that you and some others on this board discount others simply because we have our own minds and opinions. That's rather elitist and arrogant if you ask me, and agree or disagree, that is not the way to advocate your position and win over people. At least not to me.

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UA has always been known for having selfish, me-first work groups that rarely ever work together. Do you think that might have a little bit to do with our problems? The only way we turn this sinking ship around is by putting aside the wrongs of the past and working together by looking AHEAD, not BEHIND.
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Yes, to look ahead with EYES WIDE OPEN. And I do agree with your first sentence here. I hope we can find ways to come together. I don't see how anyone could want that more than I do.

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You complain about the company asking for concessions from you,
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I do? Maybe from where you stand. What I have said regarding concessions is that the company will have to drop the "non-precedence" clause of the AVOLAR demand. We have an equally strong demand that it be deleted.

To agree to the company's demand on this issue would be willingly sacrificing my job. I don't know many people who would do that, if they are in their right mind. Most people would fight. What possible benefit can there be for making a conscious choice to sacrifice one's job? None! In that case it is an equally risky gamble to let a BK judge decide.

We won't willingly sacrifice our future...they will have to take that. How could it be reasonably otherwise? Would you willingly go down without a fight? No, there has to be other solutions to this issue. I happen to believe there will be. There should be a win/win on this issue. We just have to work for it.

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yet you fail to realize that your attitude of non-support of the CEO until he wins it from you is contributing to the very need for concessions.
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One more time. I have never come close to saying my attitude is of non-support. You are paraphrasing again. You will have to explain your meaning of the full statement however.

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So, yes, Tilton must earn our respect and trust. However, that doesn't mean that we all can't give him our complete support from the get-go, until he proves he's not worthy of it. Without that support, anything he attempts to do to fix this company will fail. Wakeup before it's too late.
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Again I reiterate. My mind is open and I reserve judgemtent.

 

[spacewaitress]

[blockquote]
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On 9/4/2002 1203 PM mastermechanic wrote:

... But you don't even have the guts to tell everyone here what YOUR parti****tion in that endeavor is.
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[/blockquote]

If you are interested in open dialogue, then it seems reasonable to know what department you are in. I always assumed you were in FO.

 

[GGpillow]

In defense of 777flyer, he has on more then one occasion told folks here what it is he does for a living. Of course, some of you, who have just joined USAviation obviously wouldn't have know that, but he has been fairly open about it. I don't really agree with his viewpoint on this particular subject, but just wanted to point this fact out.

 

[UAL777flyer]

mastermechanic,

Don't have the guts, huh? Most people who've been posting on these boards for awhile know what I do and where I work. Heck, some, like mancityfan, have already met me in person. The reason I didn't put it in my last post is because to do so would continue to let this topic deviate from it's intended direction. That's why I told you to Private Message me and I'd be glad to continue our discussion there. But I see you chose not to do that. Were you lacking in guts? Did you lose some of that 'Semper Fidelis'? But I forget that you're a newcomer. I'm a management employee and I work in the Resource Planning department. I'm a worker bee, just like you. I don't make or set policy. I come to work every day and bust my butt doing my job to help this company out. Part of my job entails being privy to our revenue/traffic numbers. So forgive me if seeing how bad things are has made me come to the realization that yes, things are as bad as they are being portrayed, and yes, we all need to chip in to lower costs and turn things around or this airline will die! If you think mechanics, flight attendants and pilots are the only important pieces to this airline, than you are sadly mistaken and I suggest you swallow some of that ego.

spacewaitress,

I have absolutely zero control over what happens to my wages/benefits. It has nothing to do with "rolling over". It has everything to do with having no control over it. However, I'm also smart enough to realize the situation this company is in. People like you amaze me with your denial. You're probably one of the f/a's I continually hear on the employee bus who says "the planes are full, so we can't be losing money", or my all-time favorite "the company is hiding money in offshore accounts". When are you going to wake up? Your tough-talking bravado is useless because the company will get what they want from you one way or another. Either you deal voluntarily or the company declares Ch. 11. And you can bet that they will petition for much larger cuts in that setting than they want now. Just look at US Airways. The same will happen here. And with UA having the highest labor costs in the industry, what do you think the judge is going to decide? You exemplify the very reason why the AFA as a union gets very little respect in the industry. I wouldn't for a second diminish the difficult job you folks do each and every day. This issue isn't about that. But your union and many of its members (you included, apparently) need to educate yourself better on the seriousness of our situation. I am not advocating that you simply accept the company's initial proposals. I'm all for negotiating the best deal you can get. My point is that when you're up against a deadline, the choice is to either accept a deal prior to that deadline or risk the company filing Ch. 11. If that were to happen, the outcome to the work groups and the company would be devastating.

P.S. sorry for the confusion in previous posts. Some of my comments regarding giving full support to Mr. Tilton, etc., were not directed at you, but were more general statements. I didn't mean it to sound as though I were putting words into your mouth.

 

[gatemech]

UAL777flyer,

I'm glad to see that you think the concessions should be negotiated. If they leave the current deadline then there just isn't time. I think that medical and industrial sick leave need to be left out of the picture. Vacation too. Do you really believe that 6 years is reasonable? A year and a half down the road things get good. We start to show profits. Cost of living goes up and we are stuck with out dated concessions. There is no reason for 6 years. 1 year at a time. Review the situation and adjust as needed. Now don't get me wrong. This doesn't mean that I will vote for any concessions just yet. This is just my opinion if things get rammed down out throats. I am keeping an open mind and will listen to the new CEO. I would have to make any decision based on what he says if I see he can be trusted. I can't trust the IAM knowing that they just don't have the member’s interest as a priority.

 

[spacewaitress]

Read my post 777, your prejudice is showing.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Gatemech,

Of course I support negotiating the best deal each group can get. I apologize if my remarks made it appear that each group should simply take what the company dictates. I do not support that. My point is that similar to US Airways, there will come a point when there is no more time to negotiate and the company either reaches agreements that it needs to get the ATSB loan guarantees, or it will declare Chapter 11. If the company should file Ch. 11, I think it's a safe bet that they will petition for cuts/changes to labor contracts that go beyond what they'd be willing to accept outside bankruptcy. We've wasted a considerable amount of time the last year simply treading water and spinning our wheels. We've fixed nothing. And all it's done is cast more doubt over our ability to turn things around. I'm not saying that's labor's fault. I think much of that wasted time was due to the lame-duck CEO, along with Dutta and Studdert's presence, and the unwillingness of labor to deal with that group. However, by now we should all be WELL aware of UA's financial situation and should all be doing everything we can to find acceptable solutions to our problems. I think the deadline less than two weeks from now is simply an unrealistic timeframe to accomplish anything meaningful. Not when this much is on the line for everyone. So I think that Tilton will either convince the ATSB to give us more time to re-submit our loan application, and thereby give the unions more time to work out agreements, or he will hold to that deadline because UA has no choice but to re-submit our application on September 16th. I'm hoping it's the former and not the latter. If the deadline holds, than I think bankruptcy becomes more and more likely because agreements won't be reached in time in my opinion.

One thing I've begun to wonder, as I'm sure others have, is if Creighton and Dutta/Studdert deliberately asked for everything under the sun in the latest proposals, knowing that they'd be deemed grossly unrealistic by labor, in order to allow Tilton the ability to come in and ask for less and appear to be more conciliatory to labor. Maybe I'm reaching here, but I've started to think that might be the case. But of course, that question will probably be answered when we find out what Mr. Tilton wants from each labor group.

 

[spacewaitress]

[blockquote]
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On 9/4/2002 1108 PM gatemech wrote:

...This doesn't mean that I will vote for any concessions just yet.
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[/blockquote]
AFA isn't even using the word concessions. Snap back (proposals) are the operative words.

 

[The Ronin]

The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.
Herbert Agar