Marooned By US Airways

[longing4piedmont]

Just for the record, you've been saying that for how many years now ???

Bear

Will not speak for Art and Piney, but I can tell you that I and many others have in fact left for other airlines. At one point last fall, I added up over $1,000,000 in revenue from customers who have in fact moved on, and that is just from the people that I know from Flyertalk. Just think how many others that are out there that we don't know.

Hasn't made any difference to folks that run the place as far as I can tell. But any way you slice it a $1,000,000 is a lot of jack from a small community that likes to spend all their time on an internet site. :blink:

 

[Bear96]

Bear

Will not speak for Art and Piney, but I can tell you that I and many others have in fact left for other airlines.

Good for you!

But, then, what's the problem?

You found an airline that better meets your travel needs; you have directed all of your business towards that airline; you have left USAirways behind you. Great!

So who cares if USAirways bothers to stock fresh green limes on their flights? You've moved on, right? No need to waste any more time and energy moaning about how bad USAirways is, right? You know, because it doesn't affect you any more and all. You showed Tempe!

Right?

 

[LCC_#1]

Good for you!

But, then, what's the problem?

You found an airline that better meets your travel needs; you have directed all of your business towards that airline; you have left USAirways behind you. Great!

So who cares if USAirways bothers to stock fresh green limes on their flights? You've moved on, right? No need to waste any more time and energy moaning about how bad USAirways is, right? You know, because it doesn't affect you any more and all. You showed Tempe!

Right?

I couldn't had put it better. Thanks, Bear.

 

[longing4piedmont]

Right?

hey bear. Bite me.

You will find very few post on here from me in the past 6 months. But then for a guy who works for another airline, why do feel that you must post here as well.

You can rest assured that my airline of choice is not UAL. Don't know you, but your attitude on here reminds me of the prison matrons who work your flights. nough said.....

 

[Bear96]

hey bear. Bite me.

You will find very few post on here from me in the past 6 months. But then for a guy who works for another airline, why do feel that you must post here as well.

You can rest assured that my airline of choice is not UAL. Don't know you, but your attitude on here reminds me of the prison matrons who work your flights. nough said.....

You must have me confused with someone else. I don't work for UA, and haven't for some time. So I couldn't care less if your airline of choice is not UAL.

But I do wish you well in your quest for the perfect airline, that provides luxurious service at rock-bottom fares, has the perfect schedule for all your travel needs, and never makes a mistake. I'm sure it's out there ... somewhere ...

 

[Art at ISP]

Bear,

You still operate under the misconception that the business traveler is looking for rock bottom fares. You should be focusing your anger on the once a year leisure traveler who is looking for the loser fares.

We rarely get to take advantage of the rock bottom fares as you put it, and we pay far MORE than our rightful share, because we have to subsidize the loser fares that the company has to offer to remain competitive. My thing has always been FAIR fares--that make sense to both sides of the transaction. I never asked for $29 fares, or $99 transcon fares. My average fare has been in the $500 range, and that includes the shuttle and short hops to CLT, etc.

It was stated in another thread that the 8% of us who are considered high value business travelers contribute almost 1/3 of all the revenue. This was stated of another airline, but I am sure the numbers are similar for US as well. So as said elsewhere, what are YOU willing to give up, when that significant chunk of revenue starts to leave?

And for the record, when the hot meals in F on transcons went away last year in that ill fated experiment, about $10000 of my money went with it for a few months. Multiply me by the hundreds if not thousands of supposedly high value customers who did the same thing without saying it, and there was more than a couple of pennies lost.

The reason we have stayed so long was due to the exceptional employees of this company (you excepted perhaps), who have over the years earned our loyalty and support. However when corporate decides that they don't want us and would be happy to see us go elsewhere, there is little that our FRIENDS on the front lines can do to counter that, so we have no choice but to move on. And the competition smells blood and is actively courting us.

So nothing personal, but it's none of your darned business whether we stay or go, and at least in my case, my comments/criticisms are not whining, but constructive.

So as Greyhound air says, "you are now free to crawl back into your self pity...."

My best to you all..(most of you at least)....

 

[Bear96]

Bear,

You still operate under the misconception that the business traveler is looking for rock bottom fares. You should be focusing your anger on the once a year leisure traveler who is looking for the loser fares.

You may not realize it or want to admit it, but the vast majority of business travellers are still looking for rock-bottom fares. Maybe not "rock bottom" in the sense of the absolute lowest out there, but in the sense of way below what is really required on a scale large enough to provide the services and amenities you say you want. You dress it up and say "fair fares; we just don't want to be gouged." But what is "fair" and what is "gouging"? Those are subjective terms. They are defined in terms of what is "normal" compared to other prices out there. Fares have fallen quite dramatically over the last five years are so, and many restrictions are history, yet they are still not low enough for you.

How do you establish this magical line between "fair" and "gouging"? Fares are "fair" when there are enough people willing to pay them so that the airline can still stay in business. Many people thought that Independence Air offered "fair" fares and everyone else was "gouging." Oops -- where is Indy today?

I propose to you that what you think are "fair" fares are really unsustainable in the long run to provide the service you think such fares should be able to support. Most people simply have no idea about all the costs necessary to run an airline.

If LCC is really offering "unfair" fares, stop buying them! LCC will respond by either lowering the fares, or go out of business.

I have made this challenge before. If it is truly so plain that fares are out of whack, and that an airline should be able to provide all the perks and amenities people keep claiming they want (and feel they are paying for) at the prices they are actually willing to pay, and if it is so easy to achieve this balance, WHERE IS THAT AIRLINE? Where is the airline that is profitable, and that is offering all the services you want at fares you consider to be "fair"? (And why aren't you flying that airline?)

If that airline doesn't exist and managing an airline is so easy (which it must be since many frequent flyers here constantly criticize airline management for being so stupid), why don't you and L4PI and PB get together and start your dream airline at your dream fares and provide your dream services? There's apparently lots of money to be made very easily catering to the hordes of travellers like you, to hear how you carry on.

So as said elsewhere, what are YOU willing to give up, when that significant chunk of revenue starts to leave?

Nothing. You see, I am now on the PASSENGER / CUSTOMER side of the airline equation. But, I have the insight from the other side. So I am fascinated by the sense of entitlement some frequent flyers have. I am also fascinated by their inflated sense of how much value most of them bring to an airline. A few truly do, over the long term, pay fares well over the return they get from an airline. But those very few people are almost always way too busy working and flying, and don't have the time to be posting every little complaint all over the internet about how their last 25-minute flight to Bumblefarck had insufficient seat recline, or wasting their time trying to call the CEO personally to let him know the OUTRAGE that their last flight only had Equal instead of Sweet'N Low.

And for the record, when the hot meals in F on transcons went away last year in that ill fated experiment, about $10000 of my money went with it for a few months. Multiply me by the hundreds if not thousands of supposedly high value customers who did the same thing without saying it, and there was more than a couple of pennies lost.

But also for the record -- you are now back, apparently?

So nothing personal, but it's none of your darned business whether we stay or go, and at least in my case, my comments/criticisms are not whining, but constructive.

Nah, at this point, you are just whining.

Constructive is complaining for a while hoping the recipient of the complaint will change its ways. When it is plain the recipient is not willing or able to change, the constructive thing to do is to simply leave. Hanging on for -- literally -- YEARS while things don't chage or in fact only get worse and still lamenting about how things "ought to be," is just pointless whining. I see nothing constructive about it.

 

[Art at ISP]

Bear,

You just don't get it nor do you want to. We don't just complain about every little thing. I personally have had many fruitful discussions with both managements (of course the CCY ones were LONG ago), and some of the ideas discussed did make it to the line.

We aren't whining about each little thing they take away, we are alerting each other to what it could mean, and we are letting the powers that be know that they should reconsider some of these moves if they want to keep their highest yield customers loyal.

I have met Doug, and he seems very nice, and more importantly he apparently DOES want to know what his customers think.

And I don't know where you get your information, but while some business travelers are holding out from the lowest rock bottom fares, the overwhelming majority of us are not or can't. The difference between fair pricing and gouging is not difficult to ascertain. There is no basic problem with a $400 unrestricted r/t fare on a 500 mile trip, but there is a big problem if that same trip costs $800 or $1000. That's gouging. Even assigning an artificially high cost of 20 cents per mile, which is almost double actual CASM, $200 each way allows for 50% gross profit, which is essentially doubling your money.
That's more than fair. I have spoken to experts in the field who have as much as admitted that we are subsidizing the bottom feeders with the exhorbitant fares. We're just not going to do it any more.

The old HP had a RATIONAL fare structure in place and they made money.
The company has to decide if they want the business traveler who contributes a much higher percentage of the overall revenue, or if they want the once a year flier, who most certainly becomes their worst nightmare if there is a service interruption. We completely respect their right to be what they want to be, and we will respond accordingly--with our feet and wallets if we don't like the result.

As far as I am concerned it's still a work in progress...

As far as you and your negativity and blaming everything on the customer, I am done with you sir or madam....

Good luck to you, and I consider this debate closed.

 

[Singleflyer]

Bear

is $2.26 per mile a fair rate to fly on a Dash-8. That is what a PIT-YYZ had a few weeks age. To make it worse, the flight was cancelled for a Mech problem, and I had to fly an RJ the next morning. I would have rather been on the Dash-8.

While this is the higest rate I have paid this year, my average is $0.72 per mile and the lowest was $0.42 all above the $0.20 cost that was used in the example.

We are paying more than our fair share, and should expect some level of service compariable to other airlines on the same route.

 

[Bear96]

Bear

is $2.26 per mile a fair rate to fly on a Dash-8. That is what a PIT-YYZ had a few weeks age. To make it worse, the flight was cancelled for a Mech problem, and I had to fly an RJ the next morning. I would have rather been on the Dash-8.

While this is the higest rate I have paid this year, my average is $0.72 per mile and the lowest was $0.42 all above the $0.20 cost that was used in the example.

We are paying more than our fair share, and should expect some level of service compariable to other airlines on the same route.

Obviously, if everyone was paying $2.26 / mile throughout the system on a consistent basis, then airlines could afford all the perks you want.

But that would mean a transcon trip would yield (say 2500 miles x 2 (to make it a round trip) x $2.26 = ) $11,300. I don't think many of the people you see in flip flops -- or even business suits -- on this evening's PHL-SFO flight are paying five figures for their ticket these days. So it does little to further the discussion to pick out one particularly expensive route where LCC has pretty much a monopoly (PIT-YYZ).

Of course, that begs the question, just why did you pay so much? Perhaps because (aside from maybe an AC flight or two), LCC is the only one offering nonstop flights? So in other words you are willing to pay more for the CONVENIENCE. So on that route, you ARE in effect getting more than a level of service that is merely "comparable" to other airlines -- you are getting SUPERIOR (nonstop) service. (Unless you were expecting a five-course hot meal on that, what, 45 minute flight from take-off to landing, but then again what airline offers that in the U.S. these days?)

You will find every other airline out there charges a premium for the convenience of nonstops. If LCC is so horrible in every other regard to make that convenience not worth the premium, feel free to do an itinerary where you change in CVG or DTW or ORD or EWR or IAD.

Oh -- and as to your question of if that is a "fair" rate: Absolutely and positively YES. If you are willing to pay it, then it is a fair rate. Just how else do you propose setting air fares, if you are afraid to let the market work? Should we go back to the regulated era when the CAB set the fares and average fares were much HIGHER (adjusted for inflation) than they are today? Just what economic mechanism are you envisioning for determining how much a nonstop PIT-YYZ fare should be? Really, I am curious as to who you think should define "fair" in a way that would satsify all interested parties.

 

[allegheny37]

Of course, that begs the question, just why did you pay so much? Perhaps because (aside from maybe an AC flight or two), LCC is the only one offering nonstop flights? So in other words you are willing to pay more for the CONVENIENCE. So on that route, you ARE in effect getting more than a level of service that is merely "comparable" to other airlines -- you are getting SUPERIOR (nonstop) service. (Unless you were expecting a five-course hot meal on that, what, 45 minute flight from take-off to landing, but then again what airline offers that in the U.S. these days?)

Your joking right? Get a grip being the only one that goes non-stop is not SUPERIOR service. Your post do nothing but drive people to fly other airlines. You still don,t grasp the concept that without customers there is no airline.

 

[Bear96]

Your joking right? Get a grip being the only one that goes non-stop is not SUPERIOR service. Your post do nothing but drive people to fly other airlines. You still don,t grasp the concept that without customers there is no airline.

Perhaps you are right. I jumped to a conclusion.

So just why did Singleflyer pay $2.26/mile to go from PIT-YYZ? For the privilege of flying in a Dash 8? For the exquisite on-board pretzels? I guess I assumed it was for the nonstop service.

So, Allegheny37, if it wasn't for the nonstop service, just why does someone pay $2.26 to fly USAirways these days?

And as to my postings driving people to fly other airlines -- doubt it. The hard-cores here complain incessantly about how terrible USAirways is, yet still come back for more punishment at what they say are unfair prices. They're not going anywhere. (I had thought some of them were hanging on because of convenient nonstop schedules out of places like PHL and PIT, but thank goodness you set me straight on that silly notion of mine!) My little old posts won't change their flying patterns.

 

[Singleflyer]

Bear,

Non-stop is not a superior service, and I do not always take non-stops. AC does have a non-stop that fit my schedule better but it was sold out. And it was an E-170 to boot.

Recently I chose to fly US on a ATL-CLT-MHT route. It was $20.00 less that the direct DL flight. But I am not going to spend 2 1/2 hours on an RJ if I don't need to. US got me home slighly earlier but I left 1 3/4 hours earlier.

The revenue to US on that flight was $0.595 per mile. A more reasonable rate in m book.

As I have said before, US is the "best" carrier on about half the routes I fly. I consider "best" to be mainline, or the ones with the biggest plane on the route. Also as I have mentioned before I am Pltm on NW and Gold on DL.

I am not looking for a full meal and champange on my flights, most are at 500 miles. I am just looking for good service from all employees and maybe a bigger seat on the bigger planes

 

[Travels2mch]

And as to my postings driving people to fly other airlines -- doubt it. The hard-cores here complain incessantly about how terrible USAirways is, yet still come back for more punishment at what they say are unfair prices. They're not going anywhere. (I had thought some of them were hanging on because of convenient nonstop schedules out of places like PHL and PIT, but thank goodness you set me straight on that silly notion of mine!) My little old posts won't change their flying patterns.

Convenient nonstop schedules from PIT? What are you smoking dude?? The lack of nonstops from PIT and some of your fares are what have driven me to United and now Midwest (that coupled with my refusal to set foot in PHL for any connection). Yes if there is somewhere I can go nonstop on US, I am more likely to do it for the convenience, but that decision is easy now since it never happens anymore.

And regarding fares.....I don't hold out for lower fares, and I suspect most who travel for business are the same. When I need to go somewhere, I need to go, no matter what. My company uses an internal travel company with online bookings. I put US in as my first choice, select the flights that accomodate my business needs. Before purchasing, the system lists all lower fare options with similar times, and believe me there are many. At this point I have a choice and most of the time now, I change my selection and that is what has introduced me to the competitors. Seeing attitudes from some employees in person and on this board does make me feel less 'guilty' about changing my travel patterns. Fortunately so far, the poor customer service attitude is the minority, but unfortunately things haven't improved and that needs to change.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You see, I am now on the PASSENGER / CUSTOMER side of the airline equation.

Bear,

As a passenger/customer, it's your right to choose which airline best meets your needs and therefore gets your travel dollars. It's a free country so it's even your right to voice your opinion of our customer's attempts to produce change in the airline they've preferred rather than just quietly take their money elsewhere.

However, for all the employees that have given up so much to enable this company to get this far, most of whom realize that the revenue our FF's provide is vital to keeping this company afloat, I simply ask that you not so cheerfuly and actively attempt to chase these FF's away.

Given the choice of losing some of the revenue these folks represent by lowering fares that they pay, thus restoring "value" in their eyes, or losing all the revenue they represent, I'll take the former.

Given the choice of having some of the revenue they represent absorbed by increasing spending on the things they perceive as having value or losing all their revenue, I'll take the former.

Just don't present your Hobson's choice - pay the fares (and shut up) or go somewhere else (and by the way, shut up). Many of us want to keep these customers and would like to see management take a more proactive role in accomplishing that goal. Your kibitzing, while your right, only serves to make achieving that goal harder.

Jim