Dark Wrench
Member
- Aug 30, 2002
- 44
- 0
Buffy invoke a gag order?
or is it
strength in silence?
or is it
strength in silence?
Letter to Dave
- Thread starter LavMan
- Start date
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Really folks and seriously speaking....
We have 4 Board seats on U as Labor. I am going to impress on them that someone needs to present an Agenda Item at the Board to ask for the return of the 5% back to the employees and the Board should vote on that. Morale is bad, and this type of "indifference" as well as distain, only hurts the integrity of our company. If Bronner cares about his investment and stake, he needs to step up and return this 5% to the employees. If I were CEO, I would explain to my employees that we are in this as a team for sure...I would reassure them we have everything in place to succeed and choosing to save this airline was not invain. I would tell the employees that furloughs will stop and everyone on the property will stay on the property, we will return the 5%, and we will move forward from this point and succeed together or fail together.
Now, that one initiative would improve the spirits of the employees on the property instantaneously and that initiative would return this company 10 fold. That would take some "human desency".
Hell, but who am I anyway?
We have 4 Board seats on U as Labor. I am going to impress on them that someone needs to present an Agenda Item at the Board to ask for the return of the 5% back to the employees and the Board should vote on that. Morale is bad, and this type of "indifference" as well as distain, only hurts the integrity of our company. If Bronner cares about his investment and stake, he needs to step up and return this 5% to the employees. If I were CEO, I would explain to my employees that we are in this as a team for sure...I would reassure them we have everything in place to succeed and choosing to save this airline was not invain. I would tell the employees that furloughs will stop and everyone on the property will stay on the property, we will return the 5%, and we will move forward from this point and succeed together or fail together.
Now, that one initiative would improve the spirits of the employees on the property instantaneously and that initiative would return this company 10 fold. That would take some "human desency".
Hell, but who am I anyway?
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Can I say this....
Weak leadership...THEY HAVE NONE.
Figures CWA would be the first again to take a "proactive" stance and present an agenda item to the Board.
God Bless CWA and its members. During these concessions and "at the table", they were the most aggressive, resistant group, showed much courage at the table and at the labor coalition...remember their vote was only passed by 5.
And, if you notice once again, the FIRST group to challenge the 5% with thier campaign of letterwriting, stickers, petitions, and flyers. AFA now, will follow suit with the wearing of the green ribbon on our AFA pins.
I look forward to the vote for affliation.
Weak leadership...THEY HAVE NONE.
Figures CWA would be the first again to take a "proactive" stance and present an agenda item to the Board.
God Bless CWA and its members. During these concessions and "at the table", they were the most aggressive, resistant group, showed much courage at the table and at the labor coalition...remember their vote was only passed by 5.
And, if you notice once again, the FIRST group to challenge the 5% with thier campaign of letterwriting, stickers, petitions, and flyers. AFA now, will follow suit with the wearing of the green ribbon on our AFA pins.
I look forward to the vote for affliation.
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On 7/18/2003 8:16:26 PM PITbull wrote:
Really folks and seriously speaking....
We have 4 Board seats on U as Labor. I am going to impress on them that someone needs to present an Agenda Item at the Board to ask for the return of the 5% back to the employees and the Board should vote on that.
This was emailed to CWA members earlier today.
7/18/03
CWA BOD representative intends to raise the 5% issue at the July board of directors meeting...
Maggie Jacobsen, former chair of the NMB and now CWA representative on the US Airways Board of Directors, intends to raise the 5% issue at the July board meeting. She will present the view that the war is over and that there is no longer a measurable Iraq War impact on the airline industry, and that the 5% deferral should end and be repaid. She will be briefed on the industry data by CWA research department. Maggie''s practice is to issue an up after each Board of Directors meeting.
On 7/18/2003 8:16:26 PM PITbull wrote:
Really folks and seriously speaking....
We have 4 Board seats on U as Labor. I am going to impress on them that someone needs to present an Agenda Item at the Board to ask for the return of the 5% back to the employees and the Board should vote on that.
This was emailed to CWA members earlier today.
7/18/03
Maggie Jacobsen, former chair of the NMB and now CWA representative on the US Airways Board of Directors, intends to raise the 5% issue at the July board meeting. She will present the view that the war is over and that there is no longer a measurable Iraq War impact on the airline industry, and that the 5% deferral should end and be repaid. She will be briefed on the industry data by CWA research department. Maggie''s practice is to issue an up after each Board of Directors meeting.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Lavman,
I'm sorry. You are correct and my IAM friends say they only changed their vote to save their "scope" language, and I understand that.
You guys are great too. I know you IAM folks probably won't believe this, but I witnessed an IAM union rep stood up at the Labor Coaliton with Roddey and some local officials, stated and gave notice to all around the table, (and it was huge room full of officials and leaders) that if U dares to outsource their work, there will be NO arbitration, they will shut the airline down.
He told the ALPA MEC President right to his face to ensure he understoood him. Called him out by name.
Members have to understand...you can change your name as a union, but you still have the same members. If they are are passive now, and don't participate to make change, they will have no different outcome. Members have to become collectively proactive in their union. I've told many f/as this...that the union is not about 6 leaders. They don't run the union; members do. All union dues are for is the "pulling" of resources to ensure contract protection.
Everyone should never forget, that it was under threat of BK and liquidation that this mangement had us all, and now in all carriers, same egregious threats. What union, unanimously, said "no way"? NONE anywhere at any carrier. Even AFA, with two dissenting union leaders at U out of 6 voting members could not convince the others that the gutting of our contracts was not worth the job. And only PIT with the winter concession, members stood alone and told Managament "take their proposal and shove it".
I'm sorry. You are correct and my IAM friends say they only changed their vote to save their "scope" language, and I understand that.
You guys are great too. I know you IAM folks probably won't believe this, but I witnessed an IAM union rep stood up at the Labor Coaliton with Roddey and some local officials, stated and gave notice to all around the table, (and it was huge room full of officials and leaders) that if U dares to outsource their work, there will be NO arbitration, they will shut the airline down.
He told the ALPA MEC President right to his face to ensure he understoood him. Called him out by name.
Members have to understand...you can change your name as a union, but you still have the same members. If they are are passive now, and don't participate to make change, they will have no different outcome. Members have to become collectively proactive in their union. I've told many f/as this...that the union is not about 6 leaders. They don't run the union; members do. All union dues are for is the "pulling" of resources to ensure contract protection.
Everyone should never forget, that it was under threat of BK and liquidation that this mangement had us all, and now in all carriers, same egregious threats. What union, unanimously, said "no way"? NONE anywhere at any carrier. Even AFA, with two dissenting union leaders at U out of 6 voting members could not convince the others that the gutting of our contracts was not worth the job. And only PIT with the winter concession, members stood alone and told Managament "take their proposal and shove it".
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
To much time,
And where was the membership in all this voting and balloting. EVEN THE SECOND DAMN TIME THE MEMBERS VOTED YES. Who is to blame for their misery, the leadership. We tell our members at AFA,...you complain now? After all the newsletter writing and the dissenting positions of the two AFA leaders PIT and PHL, IT STILL WENT THROUGH. Who can vote on language, when the lanugage is vague or not finished...but WE ALL DID. And FEAR prevailed.
So, now we sit here, and suffer and look to blame whom????? Everyone else but ourselves for the damn "for" vote. New union...what do you hope will change in your working condition?
PLEAAASSSEEEE, folks start looking from within. You have the POWER and the will to take action by voicing "protest" through media and leafleting the public. Contrary to what management may say to us....THEY HATE IT.
Doesn't matter whether the public is empathetic or not...they get the message that what sits here at U is labor unrest. And as sure as I am sitting here today to tell you....the public knows full well between the two concessions sought out by this mangagement within 6 months, BK filing screwing creditors and vendors out of millions, screwing stock holders, and terminating in the end, the pilots pension, along with literally "screwing Allegheny County Authority and PA, that this mangement is "low down and dirty" and cares nothing for morale or the employees sacrifice and dedication to our company...unwaivering dedication. We have been here for years and years, and management is only perusing temporarily.
And where was the membership in all this voting and balloting. EVEN THE SECOND DAMN TIME THE MEMBERS VOTED YES. Who is to blame for their misery, the leadership. We tell our members at AFA,...you complain now? After all the newsletter writing and the dissenting positions of the two AFA leaders PIT and PHL, IT STILL WENT THROUGH. Who can vote on language, when the lanugage is vague or not finished...but WE ALL DID. And FEAR prevailed.
So, now we sit here, and suffer and look to blame whom????? Everyone else but ourselves for the damn "for" vote. New union...what do you hope will change in your working condition?
PLEAAASSSEEEE, folks start looking from within. You have the POWER and the will to take action by voicing "protest" through media and leafleting the public. Contrary to what management may say to us....THEY HATE IT.
Doesn't matter whether the public is empathetic or not...they get the message that what sits here at U is labor unrest. And as sure as I am sitting here today to tell you....the public knows full well between the two concessions sought out by this mangagement within 6 months, BK filing screwing creditors and vendors out of millions, screwing stock holders, and terminating in the end, the pilots pension, along with literally "screwing Allegheny County Authority and PA, that this mangement is "low down and dirty" and cares nothing for morale or the employees sacrifice and dedication to our company...unwaivering dedication. We have been here for years and years, and management is only perusing temporarily.
to much time to quit
Senior
- Jun 17, 2003
- 318
- 7
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On 7/18/2003 10:23:01 PM LavMan wrote:
Hey now pitbull the mechanic and related voted no! The company told the IAM they were going to hold their own second ratification vote, only then did the international step in and made us vote again.
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And the second vote is the very reason that the iam for the mechanics and utility will hopefully be voted out for good! The actions of the iam upper crust has put most over the edge that we are willing to boot them up for a much smaller (but growing) union. There would of NEVER been this much support for AMFA without the iam actions. They are their own worst enemy. Like this wonderful quote from BOOfenburger on the 141m website: What you’ll see are the veterans who fought for the seniority clauses in your IAM contract … the ones who fought for IAM wages that are more than four times higher than McDonald’s or Wal-Mart … Did he say Mickey D''s amd Wally world wages???On 7/18/2003 10:23:01 PM LavMan wrote:
Hey now pitbull the mechanic and related voted no! The company told the IAM they were going to hold their own second ratification vote, only then did the international step in and made us vote again.
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I''m impressed now, give me a break. another insult! On closing why is Scotchy Fords name on the 5% letter anyways. Didn''t he get voted out of that position on July 14?? I think his lead utility is looking for him!!
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
I was for sure thinking that the IAM would vote it down the second time, but YOU didn't. I was told that this mangagement went right to the heart of your contract, and stated the judge would take your scope. So, I can uderstand the fear factor, being... we were already in BK on the seond vote. Plus, our 401K stock went down the "shitter" to add insult to major injury.
If you are unhappy with your union TAKE ACTION AND TAKE COURAGE AND CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP. Just what ALPA is doing and will do. If there are inspiring union leaders among you, run for office and make change. Otherwise, your spinning in place. Your constitution provides you with the ability to "recall" your leadership. Educate yourselves and do it. That will send a message to the IAM and Dave.
If you are unhappy with your union TAKE ACTION AND TAKE COURAGE AND CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP. Just what ALPA is doing and will do. If there are inspiring union leaders among you, run for office and make change. Otherwise, your spinning in place. Your constitution provides you with the ability to "recall" your leadership. Educate yourselves and do it. That will send a message to the IAM and Dave.
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On 7/18/2003 3:51:27 PM LavMan wrote:
PITMTC your information is incorrect, the 5% was in the second round of concessions where there was only one vote, and it is for UPTO 18 months, not just 18 months
Difd, US only chooses to honor bits and pieces of contracts they agreed to, myself and pitbull could post hundreds of instances of this.
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I swore I voted twice in a little more than a week because I did not quite "understand " what I was voting on the first time. I was just lucky " Labor Friendly Dave" gave me a second chance to get the vote correct. I am also glad "Scotty" and "the fighting machinists" are flexing their muscles and asking "Dave" for our 5% to be returned. Maybe the IAM thinks they can still salvage the mechanics and related at U from dumping them like United? GO AMFA!!!!!!!!On 7/18/2003 3:51:27 PM LavMan wrote:
PITMTC your information is incorrect, the 5% was in the second round of concessions where there was only one vote, and it is for UPTO 18 months, not just 18 months
Difd, US only chooses to honor bits and pieces of contracts they agreed to, myself and pitbull could post hundreds of instances of this.
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roadtrip
Veteran
FACT: CWA, ALPA and the Flight attendants unions at U S Airways have been requesting the end of the 5% “FORCE MAJEURE†pay deferral since early June!
QUESTION:Why has the “IAM/MIA “ waited until now to come out against this rip-off ? Was it losing 14,000 at UAL or the upcoming Filing at USAirways for MTC. or the growing problem they have with Fleet Service the real reason.
ANSWER: Labor friendly “Dave Siegel?†has informed his IAM stooges, Canale and Ford, that he will announce the end of the 5% pay deferral “SOONâ€.
RESULT: The “MIA†will continue to deceive its members at U S Airways; they will boast that their efforts ended this hardship.
PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A UNION!
QUESTION:Why has the “IAM/MIA “ waited until now to come out against this rip-off ? Was it losing 14,000 at UAL or the upcoming Filing at USAirways for MTC. or the growing problem they have with Fleet Service the real reason.
ANSWER: Labor friendly “Dave Siegel?†has informed his IAM stooges, Canale and Ford, that he will announce the end of the 5% pay deferral “SOONâ€.
RESULT: The “MIA†will continue to deceive its members at U S Airways; they will boast that their efforts ended this hardship.
PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A UNION!
i97
Member
- Jan 11, 2003
- 22
- 0
God Bless CWA and its members. During these concessions and "at the table", they were the most aggressive, resistant group, showed much courage at the table and at the labor coalition...
Most agressive, resistant? HARDLY! In the 2nd talks by Early AM Wed Dec 18th, we announced to our members after telling them we were holding out, that we and they had no choice under the threat of liquidation but to concede, before the day was up it was on all our websites....
Meanwhile....The other Unions (except ALPA which ahd their deal) were still at it, and did so until late that Friday
Most agressive, resistant? HARDLY! In the 2nd talks by Early AM Wed Dec 18th, we announced to our members after telling them we were holding out, that we and they had no choice under the threat of liquidation but to concede, before the day was up it was on all our websites....
Meanwhile....The other Unions (except ALPA which ahd their deal) were still at it, and did so until late that Friday
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On 7/18/2003 10:30:49 PM PITbull wrote:
Members have to understand...you can change your name as a union, but you still have the same members. If they are are passive now, and don't participate to make change, they will have no different outcome. Members have to become collectively proactive in their union. I've told many f/as this...that the union is not about 6 leaders. They don't run the union; members do. All union dues are for is the "pulling" of resources to ensure contract protection.
Everyone should never forget, that it was under threat of BK and liquidation that this mangement had us all, and now in all carriers, same egregious threats. What union, unanimously, said "no way"? NONE anywhere at any carrier. Even AFA, with two dissenting union leaders at U out of 6 voting members could not convince the others that the gutting of our contracts was not worth the job. And only PIT with the winter concession, members stood alone and told Managament "take their proposal and shove it".
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While there is truth to the statement that "If they are are passive now, and don't participate to make change, they will have no different outcome" sometimes the change that is required is the entire organization. Good leaders such as the one you mention will likely continue to make good leaders in a new organization. I dont know how the IAM is structured but in the TWU change can not be mandated from the members. At AA control over the agreement is put in the possesion of appointed officials, not elected. This creates a barrier to the ability to change from within and discourages meaningful participation and eliminates or misplaces accountability. Local leaders are usually held accountable for poor contracts even though our structure isolates them from control of the process. Appointed officials can make changes without the consent of the members, and the members have no recourse within the union, their only recourse is to seek representation through a different Union.On 7/18/2003 10:30:49 PM PITbull wrote:
Members have to understand...you can change your name as a union, but you still have the same members. If they are are passive now, and don't participate to make change, they will have no different outcome. Members have to become collectively proactive in their union. I've told many f/as this...that the union is not about 6 leaders. They don't run the union; members do. All union dues are for is the "pulling" of resources to ensure contract protection.
Everyone should never forget, that it was under threat of BK and liquidation that this mangement had us all, and now in all carriers, same egregious threats. What union, unanimously, said "no way"? NONE anywhere at any carrier. Even AFA, with two dissenting union leaders at U out of 6 voting members could not convince the others that the gutting of our contracts was not worth the job. And only PIT with the winter concession, members stood alone and told Managament "take their proposal and shove it".
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The drives going on at USAIR and other carriers are a good thing. The franchising of the industry between the IAM,TWU,IBT and CWA should have ended with deregulation because airline workers needed unions that were focused on this industry, not to be just a profitable source of dues for big institutions like the IAM,TWU, IBT and CWA. These big organizations would never take a real, potentially risky stance in defence of airline workers. Anyone who does not see this after what has happened over the last two years is blind. The incumbant airline labor unions failed their members PERIOD. They allowed the burden of the excesses of the nineties (in which we did not share) and the terrorist attacks of Sept 11 to be bourn by the workers of this industry. Instead of uniting under the umbrella of the AFL-CIO and taking a united stance against what we being done, these unions joined with the companies in raping airline workers, instead of uniting, the unions salivated at the thought of a carrier with other unions liquidating. Admittedly none more successfully than my union, the TWU.
It would be a good thing if the workers of USAIR, United and American were all in unions that were completely focused, run by and accountable to airline workers. The IAM, TWU, IBT and CWA will never do what is best for those of us who chose to work in this crazy industry, all they want to know is how to keep the dues flowing.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
i97,
True...very true. AFA MEC was still in session on Dec. 20th, the deadline hour was 6.pm. No agreement, and mangement said it would be too late for our vote to send the proposal out to the members or not. There was much in fighting within the MEC at that last hour. All Presidents of AFA voted to send it out to the membership for a vote, HOWEVER, only the PIT President voted "against" a "for" recommendation. To the Local President of PIT, why have a contract when the proposal was to "gut" the heart of our agreement. She didn't care if they liquidated or not.....for the very reasons we sit here today. But, still with much opposition from two Presidents out of 6, the vote went through by a 9% margin, with Pittsburgh voting it DOWN, god bless Pittsburgh.
Most leaders of all unions believed U's threat. AFA PIT President DID NOT, and neither did her members.
Most members believed it. I was on these boards all of Dec and Jan and Feb.
They all believed it, no matter. And obviously, so do the other unions of the other carriers, as well.
Really, who do you blame? Leadership, members? I personally only blame Mangement for forcing us to "trade places" with the company. Now, we, as employees, one by one, face financial ruin and BK.
Is it worth it, in the end?
Bob,
You also, if I remember, had profound "insight" on all of this. You knew with such insight and foresight, that this was nothing more than a "means" to get billions and billions from Labor for years and years to come. And while they were at it, why not go into BK or threaten just to screw the vendors and lessors, while they were in there.
Yup, you are right. But, changing unions is not the answer. It is changing us the members. Our "mindset" from within to make our working conditions change, and to take courage.
That is only through "collective protest" loudly, succinctly, emphatically, and unwaivering solidarity! I see it coming...its happening. WE are all coming on the same page now.
AFA will vote in next week to implement a "strike fund" that PIT AFA President will present, that will be balloted and ratified by the members by end of year. A fixed amount of money "yearly flat rate" to go in to this fund for the purpose of a potential job action when we are section 6 that will cover all "Flight pay loss" for CHAOS and paid tickets to return to their homes!!
Get ready to rock in 2009. It is sooner than we think. Enough time to prepare our members for MAJOR action to take back what we need to exist at such a fine, honorable, uniquely, skilled profession. And I believe, if we are still here, we, as a company will be profiting like never before. I'm confident of that.
True...very true. AFA MEC was still in session on Dec. 20th, the deadline hour was 6.pm. No agreement, and mangement said it would be too late for our vote to send the proposal out to the members or not. There was much in fighting within the MEC at that last hour. All Presidents of AFA voted to send it out to the membership for a vote, HOWEVER, only the PIT President voted "against" a "for" recommendation. To the Local President of PIT, why have a contract when the proposal was to "gut" the heart of our agreement. She didn't care if they liquidated or not.....for the very reasons we sit here today. But, still with much opposition from two Presidents out of 6, the vote went through by a 9% margin, with Pittsburgh voting it DOWN, god bless Pittsburgh.
Most leaders of all unions believed U's threat. AFA PIT President DID NOT, and neither did her members.
Most members believed it. I was on these boards all of Dec and Jan and Feb.
They all believed it, no matter. And obviously, so do the other unions of the other carriers, as well.
Really, who do you blame? Leadership, members? I personally only blame Mangement for forcing us to "trade places" with the company. Now, we, as employees, one by one, face financial ruin and BK.
Is it worth it, in the end?
Bob,
You also, if I remember, had profound "insight" on all of this. You knew with such insight and foresight, that this was nothing more than a "means" to get billions and billions from Labor for years and years to come. And while they were at it, why not go into BK or threaten just to screw the vendors and lessors, while they were in there.
Yup, you are right. But, changing unions is not the answer. It is changing us the members. Our "mindset" from within to make our working conditions change, and to take courage.
That is only through "collective protest" loudly, succinctly, emphatically, and unwaivering solidarity! I see it coming...its happening. WE are all coming on the same page now.
AFA will vote in next week to implement a "strike fund" that PIT AFA President will present, that will be balloted and ratified by the members by end of year. A fixed amount of money "yearly flat rate" to go in to this fund for the purpose of a potential job action when we are section 6 that will cover all "Flight pay loss" for CHAOS and paid tickets to return to their homes!!
Get ready to rock in 2009. It is sooner than we think. Enough time to prepare our members for MAJOR action to take back what we need to exist at such a fine, honorable, uniquely, skilled profession. And I believe, if we are still here, we, as a company will be profiting like never before. I'm confident of that.
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