JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA AMTS

[conehead777]

Another week and no specifics....
They come out every Friday with nothing but useless information.
This union is good at one thing keeping everyone in the dark. No one knows crap.
U guys suck....
Enjoy your week off ill b tune in next week and find out the same nothing.....

that's there plan to keep us the members in dark. That's why there updates tell nothing. That's why there is no observers. Those two reasons right there out of the many other reasons is to vote AMFA in. AMFA wants a informed member , the industrial union wants to keep members in the dark with backdoor deals. The union and company pull I thank next week. They need to be locked in with company and nc we the members put observers in there and hammer out a Ta.for both parts .observers will use never happen with the aa negotiations. The company and the company's union the Iam/twu can make there plans of how to sale us the member down the river

 

[conehead777]

http://www.amfanational.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=578937&page=Southwest20Airlines

Twu/ass this is how a update should be precise point to what both side information . To what your union proposal was and the offer and counter offer from the company . To the the nc you want our supports So put us in as observers. Observers observers we want observers. We're tired of not knowing what the slow up is . As observers we will no and the company will be playing there games now and the unions for that much

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Nice copy and paste update. I'd say unbelievable but, the again, nothing they do is surprising anymore.

 

[767 mechanic]

Conehead you are correct but if the twu does what they usually do and I know the iam is a mirror image of the twu. They will make it look like they are miles apart and then they will miraculously come to a TA over a week. This will happen because as you stated we are kept in the dark. The company has an agenda and they will only come to an agreement when it fits their time schedule. The company has a plan that you and I know nothing about and we will find out what that plan is after the contract is ratified. The association supposedly hired this great negotiator/economist and they have already agreed to concessions on the sick time. We can only imagine what other concessions that we have not heard about. If I here about any more concessions I will let everyone know here on the forums. Smile Regan/iam  yes I said that.This is a chess game and the association is playing checkers. Remember this post and we will all see if I am correct in my prediction of how we will come to a TA. 

 

[conehead777]

Conehead you are correct but if the twu does what they usually do and I know the iam is a mirror image of the twu. They will make it look like they are miles apart and then they will miraculously come to a TA over a week. This will happen because as you stated we are kept in the dark. The company has an agenda and they will only come to an agreement when it fits their time schedule. The company has a plan that you and I know nothing about and we will find out what that plan is after the contract is ratified. The association supposedly hired this great negotiator/economist and they have already agreed to concessions on the sick time. We can only imagine what other concessions that we have not heard about. If I here about any more concessions I will let everyone know here on the forums. Smile Regan/iam  yes I said that.This is a chess game and the association is playing checkers. Remember this post and we will all see if I am correct in my prediction of how we will come to a TA.

true very true

 

[Real tired]

Real Tired brought up Fleet. If one of yours wants to talk about what my group should do, well guess who's stepping in to say butt out of MY business. Just like you guys want me to butt out of yours.

Some of the posters on this thread I actually like (not you) and they can come into my house any day and help themselves to a brew. But some of the guys they live with here again I can't stand so I really would just rather stay the hell away.

700UW is his own man BTW. And I wouldn't think about putting a leash on the Dude even if I could. But without him here my guess would be you'd be up to maybe 10 pages max? It's got to get tiresome only agreeing with each other and patting yourselves on the back for so long.

Man would that bore the hell out of me.

Trying this again.

Peace out.

 
Actually, in a way, when I was referring to Fleet, I was referring to you.
 
I know you have talked of choice, and that would be great, but I seriously doubt that there will be any choice, for ether of our groups.
 
Years back when our pension plan (DB) was terminated, we said NO to the IAMNPF just like the posters on these threads are doing now.  We said "give us a choice" just like you are saying now.  We said that for 2 long years.
 
But the IAM knew they needed the participation of the Utility, Stores and Mechanics to keep the fund solvent and to prevent the reduction of benefits to the Fleet group, which started in the plan 3 years before us.
 
So the only choice we ever had in our participation of the plan, was when they underhandedly wrote it into a TA contract.  We had the choice of voting yes for a TA or no for a TA that included the IAMNPF.  And guess what?  As soon as the TA narrowly passed, and we were paying into the plan, they still reduced Fleet's benefits.
 
As for the choice today.  If you are given a choice to participate in the plan, I should be given the choice to leave the plan, and have my $2.00 per hour put into my 401K as match money.  
 
Do you really think the union will ever allow that?

 

[AP Tech]

Thinking this group is being led to slaughter.......way back when it was said the seniority issue had been settled, now all of a sudden its not....we were all told the Association had presented a comprehensive offer to the Company, now through these joke of supposed updated we are being told they "have exchanged proposals"...which is it? Who is lying to who...
 
As for the above post, I'm all for being given the choice to leave the plan.....give me the $2 and I will take my chances.  When the members were sick of the IAM and threating to leave the Pension was held to their heads....the more I think about it, Ponzi may not be to far off..

 

[767 mechanic]

http://www.amfanational.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=578937&page=Southwest20Airlines

Twu/ass this is how a update should be precise point to what both side information . To what your union proposal was and the offer and counter offer from the company . To the the nc you want our supports So put us in as observers. Observers observers we want observers. We're tired of not knowing what the slow up is . As observers we will no and the company will be playing there games now and the unions for that much

 
Hey conehead did you see the manager/financial planning is John Donnelly. That is Don Videtich's  old buddy that the twu used to hire to take the companies side in our negotiation's. It's amazing fat bastard gets fired from the twu international along with Gless and now his old buddy Donnelly is in neg with management at SWA. Yes I'm  100% sure that Donnelly never sold us out in negotiations. I hope everyone knows that I am being completely sarcastic with that statement.

 

[Real tired]

Another point about DB plans; if organized labor wants to attract/engage younger members, it has to recognize their different ideals. Most people in their 20's want to be in control of their money, and portability is a huge deal to them.

 
Now see?  That's an interesting point.
 
If you are a 20 or early 30 something American Airlines (or Delta) employee, and you were to participate in the IAMNPF for your long career, by the time you retire, well by golly, you'd have something.  In this case, I'd say a big "Yes" vote for the IAMNPF.
 
But sadly, at two of the oldest workforce carriers, most of us are in our 50's now, and a multi employer pension plan makes no financial sense.  Especially when you have zero control of that money.

 

[Real tired]

My reasons for posting on this forum cover basically two subjects and
one is AMFA, When Weaasles joined in and gave his views I had
the same opinion as you do now. The other subject is the IAMPF, I
truly believe it is the only reason the ASS was formed & I also believe
I'am correct when I say it would be a huge mistake for any TWU member
to join. Since Weaasles is a big voice in his workgroup why would
we not want to have the ability to prove him wrong here then take
the fight to the fleet service thread. I do not know Weaasles I do not
have any personal opinion of him, I know he lets his ego and his sarcastic
personality rule his posts, so why not try to take him down a few notches
on a subject we know that we are correct. 700 is nothing but a downwind
turd chucker at a pissing contest, he has no reason to be here but If you
have good aim he is easy to chase off.

 
I agree 100%.
 
Mr. "WE", are you listening?
 
I think I might have said something before to you, and although your ideology might be swaying a little bit in some of your posts, I feel your opinion is welcome here.  After all, you are my union brother. 

 

[767 mechanic]

 
Actually, in a way, when I was referring to Fleet, I was referring to you.
 
I know you have talked of choice, and that would be great, but I seriously doubt that there will be any choice, for ether of our groups.
 
Years back when our pension plan (DB) was terminated, we said NO to the IAMNPF just like the posters on these threads are doing now.  We said "give us a choice" just like you are saying now.  We said that for 2 long years.
 
But the IAM knew they needed the participation of the Utility, Stores and Mechanics to keep the fund solvent and to prevent the reduction of benefits to the Fleet group, which started in the plan 3 years before us.
 
So the only choice we ever had in our participation of the plan, was when they underhandedly wrote it into a TA contract.  We had the choice of voting yes for a TA or no for a TA that included the IAMNPF.  And guess what?  As soon as the TA narrowly passed, and we were paying into the plan, they still reduced Fleet's benefits.
 
As for the choice today.  If you are given a choice to participate in the plan, I should be given the choice to leave the plan, and have my $2.00 per hour put into my 401K as match money.  
 
Do you really think the union will ever allow that?

 
I agree with you 100%. I was told that we will have a choice in participating in the iam scam/pension fund. Our only choice will be to vote yes for the TA or vote no for the TA. Remember we were told that we would have a vote on whether we wanted an association or not. We were also told that we would have a contract in 30 days or we would go to arbitration. I do believe our 30 days have come and gone. This association/abortion has no intention of ever telling us the truth because if they did they would have to answer questions that they do not want to answer. 

 

[swamt]

I don't get it. The association is requesting the help of a Arbitrator to settle our seniority integration issue? I thought Arbitrators come in after mediators and only after negotiations go past amendable dates. Last time I looked the TWU and IAM have current contracts. This whole thing stinks like a dead fish in the bottom of the barrel.

If this is happening it sounds very off to me as well.  First step would be one or both sides requesting a mediator, after long and no progress then both sides would have to agree to arbitration.  If this ass. is telling you guys that they are going straight to arbitration over the seniority integration issues, something is very wrong with this move. Sounds extremely fishy to me.  Sounds to me like they are trying to throw the blame somewhere else and away from the asso. which tells me their discussions on this issue are not gonna be in the favor of the larger group (TWU).  Pretty sure there is more of the "can of worms" fixin to be opened up and they want to be able to say "that's what the arbitrator decided."  

 

[MetalMover]

If this is happening it sounds very off to me as well.  First step would be one or both sides requesting a mediator, after long and no progress then both sides would have to agree to arbitration.  If this ass. is telling you guys that they are going straight to arbitration over the seniority integration issues, something is very wrong with this move. Sounds extremely fishy to me.  Sounds to me like they are trying to throw the blame somewhere else and away from the asso. which tells me their discussions on this issue are not gonna be in the favor of the larger group (TWU).  Pretty sure there is more of the "can of worms" fixin to be opened up and they want to be able to say "that's what the arbitrator decided."  

The seniority issue is a biggie. Each side will NOT concede their seniority method to the other. So they have to have it arbitrated. As much as I hate this association, I do not think there is anything fishy about having an arbitrator decide the seniority issue. And I do not want to see the seniority issue hold up the contract any  longer than it currently has to. Seniority within each classification has already been agreed to. What you have is what you have with the same-date tie breaker being determined by SSN. The crew chief/lead mechanic seniority will be the main issue for the arbitrator. I don't know how you or anyone else can predict which way he would rule and who would get screwed. All you have to do is look at the Kasher ruling regarding the TWU/AA merger integration argument to see that anything can happen.
Also bear in mind that he will have to consider how furloughs and bumping will be handled and how each is affected by seniority.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Seniority Integration: Joshua Javits

Not sure if you guys got the same update as Fleet but I'll assume the anti union Javits is handling your seniority recommendations as well. The real bio of Javits is as follows.

From my dealings with him, he is a anti union piece of crap. When George Bush appointed him in 1988 to lead the Republican controlled NMB, his NMB ruled against the Teamsters at US AIRWAYS and ordered an unnecessary vote.

The rules to the election were a joke. US AIRWAYS violated our rights left and right. I flew up to the NMB offices to make an appeal. Javits assigned an investigator to hear my complaint. The Teamster lawyers argued for a laker ballot or key ballot to penalize the company for such violation. Javits NMB ruled for us against the blatant US AIRWAYS election interferrance but didn't penalize the company or order any Laker or Key ballot.

He is not only a Republican, but a Republican appointee by George Bush Sr. That's the story, and our ridiculous 2 Labor organizations are putting our seniority in his hands instead of figuring the things out itself. Putting this stuff in the hands of 3rd parties is a very very bad decision.

 

[swamt]

The seniority issue is a biggie. Each side will NOT concede their seniority method to the other. So they have to have it arbitrated. As much as I hate this association, I do not think there is anything fishy about having an arbitrator decide the seniority issue. And I do not want to see the seniority issue hold up the contract any  longer than it currently has to. Seniority within each classification has already been agreed to. What you have is what you have with the same-date tie breaker being determined by SSN. The crew chief/lead mechanic seniority will be the main issue for the arbitrator. I don't know how you or anyone else can predict which way he would rule and who would get screwed. All you have to do is look at the Kasher ruling regarding the TWU/AA merger integration argument to see that anything can happen.
Also bear in mind that he will have to consider how furloughs and bumping will be handled and how each is affected by seniority.

I agree with you that it will be one of if not the biggest issue to be ironed out. Maybe an arbitrator can come up with some sort of "meet in the middle" by a creative fence method of some sort. Or, is it up to him/her to make a decision between the two different methods currently being used?  It might be very advantages to find a little history behind the chosen arbitrator.  If he/she has ever been in a union shop job in the past, and how that union handled the seniority issues there. In other words, if an arbitrator has been involved with union jobs in the past they may be easy to pick the same way they have had it in the past. Picking an arbitrator for this issue will be key for the union to do their homework prior to picking one.  Yes, this one will be tricky indeed...