It's the Fares, Stupid---STILL

[PITbull]

Spin,

Not sure what "Bulk fares" are. If you go on priceline, pick a day you want to fly, all airlines that go to that destination will come up. I have flown 3 times on U and once on USA 3000. They had the best fares out of PIT, far better than AA, AirTran, NW, United and CO. Fares I had checked were from PIT to PVD, Williamsport, PA, Tampa, Chicago, Dallas.

Actually, I booked twice to PVD on U, so its 4 times on U. And of course, it adds to my FF miles.

 

[SpinDoc]

Spin,

Not sure what "Bulk fares" are. If you go on priceline, pick a day you want to fly, all airlines that go to that destination will come up. I have flown 3 times on U and once on USA 3000. They had the best fares out of PIT, far better than AA, AirTran, NW, United and CO. Fares I had checked were from PIT to PVD, Williamsport, PA, Tampa, Chicago, Dallas.

Actually, I booked twice to PVD on U, so its 4 times on U. And of course, it adds to my FF miles.

PitBull:

Well, if you're getting Dividend Miles for your flights, then they are regular published fares. The bulk fares are very restrictive and don't allow DM mileage accrual.

Priceline and other internet consolidators such as Expedia purchase excess capacity from the major carriers. They buy in bulk and reserve the right to re-sell the seats for a predetermined price which is much lower than a published fare. When a customer purchases a bulk fare ticket, they cannot make changes to it without the permission of the issuer. Priceline might pay $125 round trip for a seat PIT-MCO, and then re-sell it to a customer at the last minute for $275. My point is that US could stop the practice of dumping excess capacity and sell it themselves, pocketing the profit that is now being kept by priceline and others. If the fare structure were rationalized, companies like priceline would only be needed to sell published fares.

 

[PITbull]

Spin,

Well, that makes sense. Perhaps U sells the seats to priceline to ensure that they receive some revenue. Its better than taking the chance with not selling the seat; then it goes empty. Specifically, as you said, for reasons of "over capacity".

I'm just taking advantage of purchasing a space-positive seat at an affordable price vs. non-reving for free, taking a chance not getting on, and all the anxiety that goes along with that.

Plus, to drive will cost plenty. I bought a new vehicle for the first time since 1994 and to fill my tank cost approx. $60. So, to drive to PVD or Williamsport will take 4 gas tanks round trip...$280 plus stopping for food along the way, time spent...I'd rather fly for an extra $100. I'm just glad I currently can still afford it.

 

[qwerty]

Exactly Piney, and when WN goes into MOB or somewhere close enough to affect legacy pricing (how close is speculative), then fares will come down. Don't get me wrong, fares will come down, just look at the model that has existed out west for the last 15 years.

My point is why not gouge now? When enough people are perfectly willing to fork over the Y fare, why arbitrarily give them a break? You can complain all you want, but history shows you'll be back, and if not there's a whole bunch of newbie flyers that will take up the slack (hence the continued record high load factors.) Anyone remember UA's summer of hell? The NW pilot strike of 1998?

To quote Bob Sugar "it ain't show friends, it's show BUSINESS."

 

[Bear96]

Because last time I looked WN doesn't go the CLT, MEM or MOB!!!

Your comparison in the previous post made it sound as if WN offered the same schedule as LCC -- at least between the same cities. Now you are saying it did not. So perhaps your "comparison" left out some material information.

No matter. Now we find that apparently LCC IS giving you something you are willing to pay extra for: service to the exact airport you want to fly into. Imagine that. Then your choice is either to pay the premium for convenience, or go with the cheap fare and drive the difference. Kind of like ... do I go to the convenience store on the corner and buy milk for $2.99, paying a premium for convenience, or do I go to the supermarket a few miles away to get it for only $1.49. COULD the corner store charge less? Maybe. But why would they if I am too lazy to go to the supermarket and so pay their higher prices often enough?

If I honestly felt WN had something better to off I'd use them.

Exactly. For you, LCC DOES have something better to offer -- service to where you want to go! You are willing to pay the higher fare for that "something better." But you still seem to want that "something better" for free.

What you are unwilling to grasp is that until US addresses the shortcomings of the hub & spoke model,...

I've been meaning to make this point for a while, so why not now. You really need to spend some time studying the WN timetable if you think WN doesn't have "hubs" (and therefore, necessarily, "spokes"). What are BWI, LAS, and DAL in the WN system? (HINT: Four-letter word beginning with H. And it's not "hell.")

It also cracks me up that you, who flies LCC largely (as far as I can tell) because of the extensive and convenient flight schedule out of PHL, claim to want to get rid of the hub-and-spoke system. Do you not see that PHL has the LCC flight schedule that it does BECAUSE it is a major hub? Get rid of the hub-and-spoke system at LCC, and you will see your frequent nonstop flight choices out of PHL dry up pretty quickly.

Or, you can always start PineyBobAir, which offers a point-to-point network of frequent, hourly service between CLT, MEM, MOB, and every other city in the country on nice big 757s that have 50-seat F cabins and provide full hot meal service on china on every leg, with fares capped at $299 each way (based on a round-trip purchase, of course!). Sounds like a winner of a business model. Espcially at $70+/barrel oil.

 

[Bear96]

Lemme try a new approach:

Why doesn't LCC offer a "rational" fare structure?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T.

Deal with it. Keep on paying the irrational fares, or fly one of the other dozen or so airlines that are out there and move on with your life. You'll be much happier.

 

[sharktooth]

Well Doc,
I'm not seeing any anchors in your arse holding you down and keeping you from seeking a better opportunity.

I bet you were one of the ones, during the Civil Rights Era, who stated that, if the black person didn't like it here, they should go "back" to Africa as a way to "solve" the problem.

Your comments tend to hang yourself. With spokespeople like you, no wonder American corporations end up being lumped in the bottom ten percent of global corporations.

SWA sells no individual ticket over $618.00R/T less taxes and they are the most profitable airline in the business right now. Also they pay at or better than most Legacy carriers now so maybe they have figured out a way to charge less and make more.

Perhaps it is just hard work, something the USAirways mgmt types seem to excel at avoiding. I would luv to get paid half the difference in pay for the same hard time.

The point is: How much a paycut should we take to support incompetent management? At what point does an employee have a valid excuse to demand more competant management?

 

[Art at ISP]

Exactly Piney, and when WN goes into MOB or somewhere close enough to affect legacy pricing (how close is speculative), then fares will come down. Don't get me wrong, fares will come down, just look at the model that has existed out west for the last 15 years.

My point is why not gouge now? When enough people are perfectly willing to fork over the Y fare, why arbitrarily give them a break? You can complain all you want, but history shows you'll be back, and if not there's a whole bunch of newbie flyers that will take up the slack (hence the continued record high load factors.) Anyone remember UA's summer of hell? The NW pilot strike of 1998?

To quote Bob Sugar "it ain't show friends, it's show BUSINESS."

qwerty,

There are fewer and fewer people willing to put up with gouging today--and many people just aren't going. There are not enough people willing to fork over the Y fare. And those that do certainly look elsewhere the next time.

And there are many people who WON'T be back.

There's good business and then there's smart business. To gouge just because you can is despicable. And to only react to pricing when a lower priced competitor comes in is equally reprehensible. A true market leader will find the balance between good and smart business, and will truly be successful.

All you need to do is simplify and rationalize the fare structure. West has had this for years and it was profitable. Higher AVERAGES mean more revenue overall...it is proven--you can dump the bottom end and lower the high end and still make MORE. What part of that don't you understand? Sure you will fill some seats with the exhorbitant fares, but those folks will only put up with it so long and they WON'T be back...

The points you make are born of arrogance plain and simple...and unfortunately that appears to be the predominant way of thought at many carriers today. It WILL come back to bite them sooner than you think.

And I am NOT one of those who will pay those fares....had I needed to go I would have gone Airtran for half the cost. Had Airtran provided a good experience, would it not have been natural for me to ask my self why I don't fly them more often? How much revenue do you think is at risk there????

 

[JAFA]

JAFA,

I hope you're not a pilot because you would have flunked math.

Also if you read, I am talking LGA-CLT, which is 538 miles. At 11.83 cents which is an aggregate CASM, the trip would cost $63.64 in round numbers.

So there is NO cost to fly you back??

Looks like you either flunked math, economics, or logic. Which was it?

Also if YOU read, or at least pay attention to what you type, you might notice that there is NOTHING in your original post that referances LGA.

The business traveler is sick and tired of subsidizing Ma and Pa Kettle who want to fly cross country for $69.

So am I, remember it is NOT ONLY the biz traveler that buys walk ups. I think we all would like to see that crap end, but remember it isn't just the airlines. Look at biz rate versus residential rates for Verizon, LIPA, or Cablevision. :down:

Back to the subject at hand I still don't feel that the price for a walk up was that out of line. I noticed you never addressed the comparison I made to my own experiences. Do we know how full the flights in questions were? Were there lower fares in buckets already booked out?

 

[qwerty]

"despicable" and "reprehensible"

You are taking this way too personally. Airlines (despite what their current balance sheets indicate) are in the business of making money. Did BBB say why he couldn't raise his lowest fare $30? I am guessing it was because he'd lose every one of those price sensitive customers, meaning the business guy has to shoulder even more of the burden.

Again, you may think customers are bitter and have sworn off the legacies, but the load factors say you are wrong. US survived, DL and NW will survive, and as all domestic carriers more closely match their service offering, an even playing field will lead to consolidation or a competitive bloodbath. Yes rational fares are coming, that's a no brainer.

 

[Art at ISP]

JAFA,

I could have been more clear in my reference, but I was alluding to the fact that even with a one way cost of $65, $400 is profitable for a round trip. So let me be clear--cost $65, fare, $200=very profitable. The point is that almost 3x cost, you can offer FAIR fares and still be profitable. I have also taken into consideration that perhaps the $400 is what the airline gets--and another $50 in taxes would be added.

qwerty,

Customers are getting more bitter by the day--we hear it all the time. And fewer and fewer of them are paying those fares. Load factors mean nothing when most of the seats are filled by losing fares--and the constant losses bear that out.

This is one of the few industries which prices its product in complete disregard for the cost of the product. I think Crazy Eddie is in fact writing the yield management programs.

At least we agree rational fares are needed, and they are coming. The question is when.

 

[Bear96]

1. If I don't like the way I'm treated by a company I move on, My happiness is important to me.

Really? Then explain your peculiar, angst-inducing relationship with LCC.

You sure are quick to give employees the "You don't like it, leave" retort, yet you seem to be unable to follow your own advice.

 

[Doc]

PitBull:

My point is that US could stop the practice of dumping excess capacity and sell it themselves, pocketing the profit that is now being kept by priceline and others. If the fare structure were rationalized, companies like priceline would only be needed to sell published fares.

People would have to stop going to priceline.

I think it's best summed up this way,

LCC= Losing Core Customers

TO WHO