How T-Mobile’s disruption holds lessons in the American-US Airways merger

[eolesen]

Agreed.  Those of us who have been working in this industry for a considerable amount of time have seen pay and benefits impacted greatly. As for the pension, we were all promised one when we accepted our job offers. 
So employees of JetBlue and Virgin America, or any NEW employee to ANY airline do not know any better. They know the terms of their employment regarding pay and benefits and can decide whether or not to accept a job offer. 

 
Your assumption on B6 and VX seems to be that they're all new to the industry, which we know isn't the case.  I'd say a majority of their mechanics and pilots came from other airlines, and at least a plurality when you get into other areas, as these airlines were hiring when others were furloughing.  Those employees seemed to be more than willing to accept those terms, and they appear to continue rejecting the need for a union as well.
 
The more significant factor in all this is to look at employee satisfaction in conjunction with the growth patterns.... Employees at a growing company are going to be less likely to be disgruntled or seek out a union than employees at a shrinking company.
 
Oh, and for the record, not all airline employees were promised pensions or rich benefits...  
 
WN, specifically, never had a pension for its employees.  It was always a 401K.  Very few airlines launched post-deregulation have had pensions.  I don't think anyone at YX or F9 had pensions, save perhaps for the pilots.  And very few of those airlines had anything approaching the legacy union employees "we don't pay anything towards benefit" model.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Your assumption on B6 and VX seems to be that they're all new to the industry, which we know isn't the case.  I'd say a majority of their mechanics and pilots came from other airlines, and at least a plurality when you get into other areas, as these airlines were hiring when others were furloughing.  Those employees seemed to be more than willing to accept those terms, and they appear to continue rejecting the need for a union as well.
 
The more significant factor in all this is to look at employee satisfaction in conjunction with the growth patterns.... Employees at a growing company are going to be less likely to be disgruntled or seek out a union than employees at a shrinking company.
 
Oh, and for the record, not all airline employees were promised pensions or rich benefits...  
 
WN, specifically, never had a pension for its employees.  It was always a 401K.  Very few airlines launched post-deregulation have had pensions.  I don't think anyone at YX or F9 had pensions, save perhaps for the pilots.  And very few of those airlines had anything approaching the legacy union employees "we don't pay anything towards benefit" model.

Thank you for that dissertation explaining what I posted.
My point is that those of us who hired into this industry PRE-Deregulation HAD pensions and rich benefits. We accepted positions based on those promises.
 
And please don't sit there and claim that employees who hired before de-regulation who worked for PanAM. TWA, Eastern, American, Delta, USAIr, Northwest, Piedmont did not have Pensions and rich benefits. 

 

[PHL]

Even if u got ur wish contuniteus I would never see dp improving products to the levels of aaua n dl. He a cheapskate donkey w his tail btwn his legs. It would be nice to see our products go back to say the steven wolfe era when they had nice products

 
Wolf had 1 mission - to build up the airline just enough to be able to merge it.  He did that by re-branding it, creating a "real" premium product (Envoy) and upgrading/rationalizing the fleet (the largest single Airbus order at the time).  When the merger with UA failed in 2000, his days were numbered.  
 
By comparison, DP did a lot of cutbacks and skimping in the early HP-US days, but the more recent enhancements over the last few years have won back a lot of defectors.   The "products" during the Wolf days were good at the time but the new Envoy suites, wifi on every domestic plane and improved meal options are among the "nice" products that the current management has implemented.

 

[WorldTraveler]

US may have won back a lot of defectors but they have dismantled their network so much that all the customers in key markets that US has access to are not enough to generate the profits necessary to remain a standalone company which is precisely why they now need to merge with AA.

Problem for AA is that its key markets are now fully under attack by competitors as well and its track record for defending its key markets is weak at best.

When key AA and UA competitors have gained 20-30% market share in some of AA's top markets after the past 5 years and are gaining average fares comparable to AA, then the likelihood that AA/US will be an airline composed of high value customers who are loyal enough to new AA in order to generate large profits is very, very unlikely.

 

[eolesen]

Thank you for that dissertation explaining what I posted.
My point is that those of us who hired into this industry PRE-Deregulation HAD pensions and rich benefits. We accepted positions based on those promises.
 
And please don't sit there and claim that employees who hired before de-regulation who worked for PanAM. TWA, Eastern, American, Delta, USAIr, Northwest, Piedmont did not have Pensions and rich benefits.

Those in their early 50's and older *might* have hired on pre-deregulation, and the floor for pilots would probably be closer to 57.

But it's by far the shrinking minority of airline employees, especially when you consider that it's largely limited to employees at AA, DL, UA, and US.

At WN, there may be a couple hundred employees there now who were there before deregulation, but it's very few in comparison to the larger population, and they never had the rich benefits to begin with.

Same thing with Alaska, Hawaiian, Fedex, UPS -- maybe a small handful combined. It's doubtful that any of the regionals have pre-dereg employees, and we know that neither Jetblue, Airtran, Frontier, Spirit, or Virgin America could have any.

So, please feel free to go on about how things were different 32+ years ago, but it's a tired song, and one that most people just won't be able to relate to aside from what they've heard in the breakroom or at the bar after work...

 

[robbedagain]

 
Wolf had 1 mission - to build up the airline just enough to be able to merge it.  He did that by re-branding it, creating a "real" premium product (Envoy) and upgrading/rationalizing the fleet (the largest single Airbus order at the time).  When the merger with UA failed in 2000, his days were numbered.  
 
By comparison, DP did a lot of cutbacks and skimping in the early HP-US days, but the more recent enhancements over the last few years have won back a lot of defectors.   The "products" during the Wolf days were good at the time but the new Envoy suites, wifi on every domestic plane and improved meal options are among the "nice" products that the current management has implemented.

i agree w you on wolf   and on dp    as for wifi   i know the airbus 321 is all equipped  and i am not sure if other planes are  but i do know the a 321s are full wifi equipped

 

[MetalMover]

Those in their early 50's and older *might* have hired on pre-deregulation, and the floor for pilots would probably be closer to 57.

But it's by far the shrinking minority of airline employees, especially when you consider that it's largely limited to employees at AA, DL, UA, and US.

At WN, there may be a couple hundred employees there now who were there before deregulation, but it's very few in comparison to the larger population, and they never had the rich benefits to begin with.

Same thing with Alaska, Hawaiian, Fedex, UPS -- maybe a small handful combined. It's doubtful that any of the regionals have pre-dereg employees, and we know that neither Jetblue, Airtran, Frontier, Spirit, or Virgin America could have any.

So, please feel free to go on about how things were different 32+ years ago, but it's a tired song, and one that most people just won't be able to relate to aside from what they've heard in the breakroom or at the bar after work...

Once again, you give a thesis of what I may or may not have been stating in my post. 
 
I've been in this business way before deregulation and judging from your snobbish arrogance on everything airline, way before you. 
 
When most of of us old-timers started, it was a privilege and honor to be hired by an airline. Pay and benefits were good at any legacy carrier.
I'm not living in the past because I speak of the good old days. Just stating fact. You know the days before Kennedy and Kahn took people off the buses and let them fly?
 
I know quite a few mechanics who work for JetBlue who were once at legacy carriers, and believe me, according to them it is no heaven on earth. They accepted employment there for economic reasons not because they want to be part of a fun place to work.
Everybody is treated like grade school when it comes time to break for lunch and wash up to go home. And just DO WHAT YOUR TOLD management style. 
 
What sounds like a tired old song is yours and some others' philosophy about the airlines. A consultant I guess?
People like you who blame labor for the woes of the industry. But you forget that it was us OLD TIMERS who paid a dear price with deregulation so the industry was able to get BUS FARE prices for airplane seats.
And passengers wonder why service has been degraded along with safety.
 
But hey, I'm an adult, you can have the last word.