Help wanted: airplane mechanics

[Bob Owens]

Another ( orchestrated by our inveterately plutocratic government ) self-fulfilling prophecy: Downward pressure on AMT compensation has come home to roost....another of the increasing list of "Jobs Americans won't do". Uh-oh! We'll have to lower qualifications ( though I'm sure some MRO industry mouthpiece will come up with a more sanguine sounding white-washed term like "qualification rationalization" ) to maintain staffing levels....at what we want to pay.

Maggots.

Look for FAR66 to make a reappearance.

If AMFA gets voted out then A&Ps will have less of a voice in combatting FAR 66. Unions like the IBT, TWU and IAM could care less about our classification, they only care about dues so they would not resist unfavorable rulemaking.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

Look for FAR66 to make a reappearance.

If AMFA gets voted out then A&Ps will have less of a voice in combatting FAR 66. Unions like the IBT, TWU and IAM could care less about our classification, they only care about dues so they would not resist unfavorable rulemaking.

What is FAR66?

 

[Planemx]

What is FAR66?

checkout www.PAMA.org and pull up the SAE certification - that will get you started. A&P's will be installers - workering for certified engineers.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Another ( orchestrated by our inveterately plutocratic government ) self-fulfilling prophecy: Downward pressure on AMT compensation has come home to roost....another of the increasing list of "Jobs Americans won't do". Uh-oh! We'll have to lower qualifications ( though I'm sure some MRO industry mouthpiece will come up with a more sanguine sounding white-washed term like "qualification rationalization" ) to maintain staffing levels....at what we want to pay.

Maggots.

That is the plan. :down:
Either H1B visas, illegal aliens (see AAR), or outsource.

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[RDU Jetblast]

That is the plan. :down:
Either H1B visas, illegal aliens (see AAR), or outsource.

Take Care,
B) UT

I don't get it. PAMA wants to certify bag bin liner installers, seat and rug installers?I don't see the problem with that.

There is a lot of work that A&P's ARE above. When A&P's excercise their tickets doing this "mind numbing" work the value of their tickets are diluted.

Am I understanding this correctly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating outsourcing or using H1B's but this is not a bad compromise with the airlines to relegate some of the grunt work to folks who would accept the lower pay, pass relevant exams and background checks. While A&P's do the lubes, troubleshooting, overhauls and repairs.

 

[High Iron]

I don't get it. PAMA wants to certify bag bin liner installers, seat and rug installers?I don't see the problem with that.

There is a lot of work that A&P's ARE above. When A&P's excercise their tickets doing this "mind numbing" work the value of their tickets are diluted.

Am I understanding this correctly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating outsourcing or using H1B's but this is not a bad compromise with the airlines to relegate some of the grunt work to folks who would accept the lower pay, pass relevant exams and background checks. While A&P's do the lubes, troubleshooting, overhauls and repairs.

I see your point, and part of me agrees with you, however as I think this through it can also be a trojan horse of sorts.

This seems like a move ( back ) toward Taylorism....that is, the process of reducing a task/process from one requiring a skilled artisan into multiple smaller tasks that require less or very little skill....essentially de-skilling the overall process. I don't believe in the theory of A/C mtc that is set up compartmentalized ( as say, the military ) but in one where well-rounded knowledge of everybody being a journeyman. I believe it's a lot more efficient, and the individuals...and by extension, the group...command a premium on their knowledge.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

I don't see it that way. In the military, hardly anyone is licensed. They force you into a specialty and you become highly trained and experienced in that specialty. If you an engine mechanic you only work on engines, etc.

Anyone who earns 30 dollars per hour knows at least three co-workers who earns as much but don't desrve it. They are the perpetual tire and brake changers, the lube specialists, the guys who always get assigned to work the lavs.

Most leads will assign the technically toughest tasks to their heavy hitters, which in my experience, amounts to 30% of any department. Everyone else gets the routine stuff.

I see the value of this compromise. Let's face it, a master plumber or electrician will never again be paid an apprentices' wage. Neither should an A&P.

And with that thought in mind, if an A&P decides to work for another outfit, he/she shouldn't be expected to start at the bottom each time. It doesn't pay for an A&P to look for something better after ten years if you know you'll be stuck at the bottom in pay and benefits for another ten years.

It needs a lot of tweaking but I do see promise here.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't get it. PAMA wants to certify bag bin liner installers, seat and rug installers?I don't see the problem with that.

There is a lot of work that A&P's ARE above. When A&P's excercise their tickets doing this "mind numbing" work the value of their tickets are diluted.

Actually its the opposite.

If you care about your profession you generally want to broaden the scope of what is exclusively your work and raise standards as far as who can do that work, even if you consider it mind numbing (like sitting in a cockpit on autopilot for 5 hours, at least the passengers get to watch a movie) . Naturally the consumer of your service would like the opposite because of costs. The point is if we continue to narrow the field for A&Ps we reduce the demand for them, thus the price we can command. You never want to give anything up without something in return, which unfortunately has been the norm for many years.

Am I understanding this correctly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating outsourcing or using H1B's but this is not a bad compromise with the airlines to relegate some of the grunt work to folks who would accept the lower pay, pass relevant exams and background checks. While A&P's do the lubes, troubleshooting, overhauls and repairs.

Not a bad compromise? Its no compromise, our tickets are devalued and we get nothing positive in return. Its a pure setback.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't see it that way. In the military, hardly anyone is licensed. They force you into a specialty and you become highly trained and experienced in that specialty. If you an engine mechanic you only work on engines, etc.

Thats not what they are looking at. They are looking at allowing the airlines to give non-portable vertificates, in other words if the worker leaves he leaves with nothing.

Anyone who earns 30 dollars per hour knows at least three co-workers who earns as much but don't desrve it. They are the perpetual tire and brake changers, the lube specialists, the guys who always get assigned to work the lavs.

Thats managements fault. They are responsible for hiring and firing those who cant perform.

I see the value of this compromise. Let's face it, a master plumber or electrician will never again be paid an apprentices' wage. Neither should an A&P.

I dont as nothing in the proposal adresses this. If an A&P leaves one company he would still go to the bottom somewhere else.

And with that thought in mind, if an A&P decides to work for another outfit, he/she shouldn't be expected to start at the bottom each time. It doesn't pay for an A&P to look for something better after ten years if you know you'll be stuck at the bottom in pay and benefits for another ten years.

Again, there is nothing in the proposal that addresses that, its a pure loser for A&Ps.

It needs a lot of tweaking but I do see promise here.

You see something that you want to see but its not there.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

Respectfully, Bob, I disagree.

I am not trying to flame anyone. I will be upfront and tell you I have left line maintenance a long time ago.

It is not necessarily management's fault low performers don't get fired. The work has to be done and some people tend to gravitate to those jobs and milk them all night. I don't believe they should be paid the same as someone who elevates to troubleshooting auto flight systems, overhauls or R&R jet engines, signing off releases, inspecting or any other sophisticated task.

The less A&P's there are, the higher the pay. The guys who uses his A&P to do lube jobs are the ones undercutting your pay.

I have always detested the fact that when you move on in your career, you essentially lose everything and start over. In every other business, you carry your experience with you and you always negotiate your income. Heck I went from 27/hr ten years at one carrier to 16.32/hr at another. Same aircraft. Screw that. A&P's are generally an unhappy lot. It is no wonder, you guys are boxed in. You don't have negotiating power. there are too many of you.

 

[Bob Owens]

Respectfully, Bob, I disagree.

I am not trying to flame anyone. I will be upfront and tell you I have left line maintenance a long time ago.

It is not necessarily management's fault low performers don't get fired. The work has to be done and some people tend to gravitate to those jobs and milk them all night. I don't believe they should be paid the same as someone who elevates to troubleshooting auto flight systems, overhauls or R&R jet engines, signing off releases, inspecting or any other sophisticated task.

The less A&P's there are, the higher the pay. The guys who uses his A&P to do lube jobs are the ones undercutting your pay.

I have always detested the fact that when you move on in your career, you essentially lose everything and start over. In every other business, you carry your experience with you and you always negotiate your income. Heck I went from 27/hr ten years at one carrier to 16.32/hr at another. Same aircraft. Screw that. A&P's are generally an unhappy lot. It is no wonder, you guys are boxed in. You don't have negotiating power. there are too many of you.

Back when I was more enthused I enjoyed the troubleshooting for the challenge and the satisfaction that came with it, in fact I felt glad there were those who would handle the mundane chores like greasing, but like I said if you want leverage more is better, you want to claim all the work you can as yours.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

you have a point. when I was younger and enthused, I enjoyed crwling around the e&e compartment all night long but at my age I would probably appreciate doing the lube jobs. If I had twenty yrs in, I wouldn't want to be faulted for wanting to slow down a bit nor would I want to take a pay cut.

At this point, reading other threads about belt tightening and oil prices, it's a moot point. I just wish everyone the best.