Does anyone know where I can rent a R22 or 300C in the Toronto area to build time or just take a friend for a ride? Or is this even possible? I have found that due to insurance minimums(200-400 hours), most companies wont or cant even touch a low timer. So I either have to spend another 50k or more building time or partner up with one or two people and purchase a machine, would rather do the latter. Looking for advise.
Helicopters For Rent
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'broke'
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't think about 'taking a friend for a ride' until you've got some REAL experience and, ideally, are PPC'd with an operator. The tenor of your post sounds like you're a low-timer and, no matter how good you THINK you are or REALLY ARE, this is no time to be risking the life or limb of friends or family. If you want them to see what our wonderful world is like - charter a ride from one of the many competent carriers in your area. Save the demonstration of your own abilities until they're truly honed and you can, responsibly and safely, show someone how safe the game can be.
As to 'renting' a machine - it's not very easy to do, as you already seem to have identifed, as well as the primary reason(s) therefore. Add to the insurance limitations the potential lost revenue when a bent bird is out of service, and you can readily see why operators, and most owners, don't want to play. You might, however, bear the tedium of checking TC's web site for the Canadian Aircraft Register and look up private owners of R22's and 300C's, whose willingness you could check to sell you some time. Maybe not too easy, but a thought. B)
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't think about 'taking a friend for a ride' until you've got some REAL experience and, ideally, are PPC'd with an operator. The tenor of your post sounds like you're a low-timer and, no matter how good you THINK you are or REALLY ARE, this is no time to be risking the life or limb of friends or family. If you want them to see what our wonderful world is like - charter a ride from one of the many competent carriers in your area. Save the demonstration of your own abilities until they're truly honed and you can, responsibly and safely, show someone how safe the game can be.
As to 'renting' a machine - it's not very easy to do, as you already seem to have identifed, as well as the primary reason(s) therefore. Add to the insurance limitations the potential lost revenue when a bent bird is out of service, and you can readily see why operators, and most owners, don't want to play. You might, however, bear the tedium of checking TC's web site for the Canadian Aircraft Register and look up private owners of R22's and 300C's, whose willingness you could check to sell you some time. Maybe not too easy, but a thought. B)
Thanks for the response. Just as I thought though, just what are new pilots good for? Ground crew, great, just spent $50k to work on the ground, at 10 bucks an hour it should take me a few years to pay that off! I know this is a dangerous buisness, but no one told me I was going to have to spend around $200k just to get my foot in the door to meet insurance minimums, or as you say, I dont have the experience to even take a friend for a ride, so then what flying job would I be good for? If I cant take a friend I sure cant take a custumer! And as for those statistics on new pilots getting flying jobs, what bull. No one in my class last year got a job flying, or any of the other pilots(new) I met along the long x country . I think those posts were from instructors scared the truth will get out. And the truth-- 1 in 20 get a job!
broke,
i disagree, i may be new to the instructor game and i don't know how it was at your flight school. but where i am now working had last years class of 14 that had 12 get a foot in the door in the first year. that ranged from ground crew to co-joe logging. we even got 2 started at a MAJOR operator who called the school looking for 100 hour guys to get started.
it's like i tell the guys i'm training now, it's 1% that piece of paper called a licence and 99% attitude. it's amazing to me, i see the guys that are at the school 0700 every morning ready to DI, fly, wash the machines ect. and then the other side of the spectrum, the guys that drag their @ss in 15 minutes before their flight and head out the door after the debrief.........
and finally, i know it's been said before but here it is again: EVERYBODY (with the exception of the military guys) started in this business where you are now.
heck, ask downwash about the wet behind the ears rookie that was mopping a hangar floor when he met him. (how far back does THAT go hey DW?)
this is meant to encourage. suck it up and get out there. your job is there just like mine was........
412driver
ps. when i was hired i was living in my truck, showering at truck stops, road tripping and bumming a place to sleep from family or friends living on Ichiban and KD. oh ya, i've been there................
i disagree, i may be new to the instructor game and i don't know how it was at your flight school. but where i am now working had last years class of 14 that had 12 get a foot in the door in the first year. that ranged from ground crew to co-joe logging. we even got 2 started at a MAJOR operator who called the school looking for 100 hour guys to get started.
it's like i tell the guys i'm training now, it's 1% that piece of paper called a licence and 99% attitude. it's amazing to me, i see the guys that are at the school 0700 every morning ready to DI, fly, wash the machines ect. and then the other side of the spectrum, the guys that drag their @ss in 15 minutes before their flight and head out the door after the debrief.........
and finally, i know it's been said before but here it is again: EVERYBODY (with the exception of the military guys) started in this business where you are now.
heck, ask downwash about the wet behind the ears rookie that was mopping a hangar floor when he met him. (how far back does THAT go hey DW?)
this is meant to encourage. suck it up and get out there. your job is there just like mine was........
412driver
ps. when i was hired i was living in my truck, showering at truck stops, road tripping and bumming a place to sleep from family or friends living on Ichiban and KD. oh ya, i've been there................
Broke
Sounds like you're already quite bitter. don't know how long you've been out of school but I would think that any prospective employers wouldn't want even a little sniff of attitude or negativety. Maybe you're more possitive in person.
You shouldn't have to spend "200K" to get your foot in the door, you need to be keen and persistent and upbeat as all hell. Plus you need to shut up and listen when around guys and cohorts who are in a position to possibly hire you. If you do get hired, as you know you're one of the lucky ones. That's when you really have to start working as you want to keep that foot in the door. Before you know it your not making ten bucks an hour anymore and your a flyin fool having the time of your life.
It can all happen really fast if you've got the right attitude. And always remember there is someone better and keener and with better timing than you so be persistant and don't take any chances that you get for granted.
my 2 bits B)
Sounds like you're already quite bitter. don't know how long you've been out of school but I would think that any prospective employers wouldn't want even a little sniff of attitude or negativety. Maybe you're more possitive in person.
You shouldn't have to spend "200K" to get your foot in the door, you need to be keen and persistent and upbeat as all hell. Plus you need to shut up and listen when around guys and cohorts who are in a position to possibly hire you. If you do get hired, as you know you're one of the lucky ones. That's when you really have to start working as you want to keep that foot in the door. Before you know it your not making ten bucks an hour anymore and your a flyin fool having the time of your life.
It can all happen really fast if you've got the right attitude. And always remember there is someone better and keener and with better timing than you so be persistant and don't take any chances that you get for granted.
my 2 bits B)
Downwash. I read your comments about taking passengers up at 100 hrs. Should I guess your thoughts on the prospect of TC approving a 25 hr recreational pilot permit - heli (day vfr only)???? I now hope that doesn't happen (if it hasn't already).
This is a little off topic I realize but somewhat related.
100ft
This is a little off topic I realize but somewhat related.
100ft
HeloTeacher
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I think that it is entirely! on topic.
I strongly disagree with what Downwash has said.
He is intimating that the Canadian commercial licence is a farce, that this new pilot's instructor(s) failed to do his/her/their job, and that Broke does not have the common sense to be a pilot in the first place.
While I agree about the unavailability of helicopters to rent and the reasons for it, I do not see a problem at all with Broke trying to do what he wanted.
During the 100 hours of commercial pilot training there is an element of situational awareness and decision making that is assessed. This pilots instructor has put his reputation on the line that he is capable to operate a helicopter commercially within the limits of what he has already been taught. A transport Canada examiner has also assesed his flying skills and agreed that he meets the commercial standard. The day following his flight test he should be perfectly capable of taking a machine and a passenger, departing his home field and conducting a perfectly safe scenic flight out for the proverbial $100 hamburger. I have seen many former student do this.
It would be acceptable to advise caution and to remind Broke that he should operate only within the limits of his experience, but not to tell him that his 100 hours leave him incapable of operating as a pilot. This strikes me as arrogant, to judge him based on so little information. As arrogant as it would be for me to base my opinions of Downwash on this single reply. I hope that this is not how the reply was intended.
Myself, I would only remind Broke that he has had a limited set of experiences and to restrict his flying accordingly, to keep the safety of his passengers always in the front of his mind. When he feels ready to expand his horizons, obtain advice and confirmation from an instructor first. And good luck.
Wade Pelly
I strongly disagree with what Downwash has said.
He is intimating that the Canadian commercial licence is a farce, that this new pilot's instructor(s) failed to do his/her/their job, and that Broke does not have the common sense to be a pilot in the first place.
While I agree about the unavailability of helicopters to rent and the reasons for it, I do not see a problem at all with Broke trying to do what he wanted.
During the 100 hours of commercial pilot training there is an element of situational awareness and decision making that is assessed. This pilots instructor has put his reputation on the line that he is capable to operate a helicopter commercially within the limits of what he has already been taught. A transport Canada examiner has also assesed his flying skills and agreed that he meets the commercial standard. The day following his flight test he should be perfectly capable of taking a machine and a passenger, departing his home field and conducting a perfectly safe scenic flight out for the proverbial $100 hamburger. I have seen many former student do this.
It would be acceptable to advise caution and to remind Broke that he should operate only within the limits of his experience, but not to tell him that his 100 hours leave him incapable of operating as a pilot. This strikes me as arrogant, to judge him based on so little information. As arrogant as it would be for me to base my opinions of Downwash on this single reply. I hope that this is not how the reply was intended.
Myself, I would only remind Broke that he has had a limited set of experiences and to restrict his flying accordingly, to keep the safety of his passengers always in the front of his mind. When he feels ready to expand his horizons, obtain advice and confirmation from an instructor first. And good luck.
Wade Pelly
'Teach' (Wade) and 'Broke'
Maybe I get less articulate as I get older, and maybe this will be no better an attempt to get across a point of view, but...
It may have been presumptuous of me to think that you, 'Broke,' were on the fairly young side and as impetuous as most new licence holders I've met over the last 40-odd years. As well, that your skill, no matter how good for your level of experience are not likely to be a match for your enthusiasm and your eagerness to demonstrate them to 'friends.' I will, however, stand by my reluctance to encourage you in that area until, as I suggested, you're PPC'd by a commercial employer who's ready to risk his investment (probably a shade more than yours - which doesn't in the least mean I think yours is paltry) and more putting you on 'the line.'
As to the assessment of a Transport Canada examiner, there's as broad a range of competence there as throughout the industry, and the 'standard' is closer to the lowest common denominator than the highest.
You be the judge, 'Broke' but, as I MEANT to imply, please don't push yourself too far because of your very understandable enthusiasm. Polish your skill as much as you can and put everything you can towards getting that first job. 412 Driver's got it right, and he paid his dues more than many I know.
Good luck to you, regardless. B)
Maybe I get less articulate as I get older, and maybe this will be no better an attempt to get across a point of view, but...
It may have been presumptuous of me to think that you, 'Broke,' were on the fairly young side and as impetuous as most new licence holders I've met over the last 40-odd years. As well, that your skill, no matter how good for your level of experience are not likely to be a match for your enthusiasm and your eagerness to demonstrate them to 'friends.' I will, however, stand by my reluctance to encourage you in that area until, as I suggested, you're PPC'd by a commercial employer who's ready to risk his investment (probably a shade more than yours - which doesn't in the least mean I think yours is paltry) and more putting you on 'the line.'
As to the assessment of a Transport Canada examiner, there's as broad a range of competence there as throughout the industry, and the 'standard' is closer to the lowest common denominator than the highest.
You be the judge, 'Broke' but, as I MEANT to imply, please don't push yourself too far because of your very understandable enthusiasm. Polish your skill as much as you can and put everything you can towards getting that first job. 412 Driver's got it right, and he paid his dues more than many I know.
Good luck to you, regardless. B)
Oo-oo-oops!!!
Before all my TC friends leap on my head, the 'standard' I was referring to in the para on TC examination was about that of the ride, NOT of the examiners! (I keep telling myself I've got to proof these things before I push the button. If I flew like this, I'd have been dead long ago.) :huh:
Before all my TC friends leap on my head, the 'standard' I was referring to in the para on TC examination was about that of the ride, NOT of the examiners! (I keep telling myself I've got to proof these things before I push the button. If I flew like this, I'd have been dead long ago.) :huh:
I LIKE THE ANNONIMMITY OF THIS SITE, THAT IS WHY I COME OF A LITTLE PISSED, IN FACT I AM THE MOST OPTUMISTIC GUY YOUD EVER MEET, AND A WORK AHOLIC! ITS JUST EVERY STUDENT I VE RAN INTO (GOOD GUYS) HAVE HAD EXTEMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING WORK IN ONTARIO. I KNOW EVERYONE STARTED OUT IN THE SAME BOAT, BUT DID THAT BOAT HAVE POST 9/11 INSURANCE HOLES IN IT? OR ILL BET INSURANCE WASNT EVEN A FACTOR , WAS IT? INSURANCE, INSURANCE , INSURANCE-- THEY ARE RUINING THIS BUISNESS FOR THE NEW GUY, AND ALL THOSE REFERED TO THAT GOT JOBS, GREAT, BUT ITS NOT FLYING IS IT, THE NEWBIES I MET COULD FERRY MACHINES OR DO RUN UPS, NOT COMPLAINING BUT REALLY, WAS THAT YOUR FIRST JOB(OLD TIMERS) OR WERE YOU THRUST INTO A REAL FLYING JOB AND GOT THE CHANCE TO LEARN FROM THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS, THE LATER ILL BET
donnybrook
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I don't understand how a PPC will suddenly make a person fit to take passengers, if they were not fit to take pax a few hours before...
donnybrook
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Exactly.
at 15 years do i count as an oldtimer???? 🙁 
:huh:
well sonny...er...i mean... "broke",
my first job started with the boss saying: "well, stick around if you want, but i ain't paying you anything". so i stuck around. washed his helicopters, painted his fence, shovelled the s#$t from his horse barn and put more hours on his tractor my first year than i did on his helicopters. after about a month i was down to my last $200.00 and i was ready to check into skidrow when the boss saw my stuff in the truck and asked if i was leaving. "no sir, but i'm totally broke and i'm moving into a downtown flophouse". well he wouldn't hear of that so he said that he would pay my motel AND give me $25.00 a day for food! man, i was so happy! so i kept mopping and cleaning and sweeping and then i started to get the odd flight here and there. then one day after about 4 months of this he came up to me and said the words that i'll remember to my dying day: "pack your s#$t boy, you're going to the arctic tomorrow". and off i went.........
started getting a regular , although tiny, paycheck but i was flying. was it all worth it? you bet. i worked for that guy for 3 years and then it was time to move on but that man has my eternal respect as do others in the industry, downwash among them. i would say DW has probably forgotten more than i'll ever know and a more distinguished gentleman you'll have a hard time finding. i know others out there would agree when i say he hasn't an arrogant bone in his body and when he tells you something, well i reckon he has your best interests in mind and you would be wise to listen.........
one last thing, i am a firm believer in what comes around, goes around. my first boss and i once talked about my meager salary and he said that i had to start somewhere and i agreed but told him that once i had the time in that i would nail him for every penny i could. well he laughed and said he would welcome that. well i went back and flew contract for him in the big fire flap of 98' and i'll tell you what, i was making more per month than i did my whole first year working for him........
sure, some of the "oldtimers" may have just "walked" into a flying job but i would bet most had to put in time somehow. so like i said before, suck it up and get out there. your job is there just like mine was............
412driver
:huh: well sonny...er...i mean... "broke",
my first job started with the boss saying: "well, stick around if you want, but i ain't paying you anything". so i stuck around. washed his helicopters, painted his fence, shovelled the s#$t from his horse barn and put more hours on his tractor my first year than i did on his helicopters. after about a month i was down to my last $200.00 and i was ready to check into skidrow when the boss saw my stuff in the truck and asked if i was leaving. "no sir, but i'm totally broke and i'm moving into a downtown flophouse". well he wouldn't hear of that so he said that he would pay my motel AND give me $25.00 a day for food! man, i was so happy! so i kept mopping and cleaning and sweeping and then i started to get the odd flight here and there. then one day after about 4 months of this he came up to me and said the words that i'll remember to my dying day: "pack your s#$t boy, you're going to the arctic tomorrow". and off i went.........
started getting a regular , although tiny, paycheck but i was flying. was it all worth it? you bet. i worked for that guy for 3 years and then it was time to move on but that man has my eternal respect as do others in the industry, downwash among them. i would say DW has probably forgotten more than i'll ever know and a more distinguished gentleman you'll have a hard time finding. i know others out there would agree when i say he hasn't an arrogant bone in his body and when he tells you something, well i reckon he has your best interests in mind and you would be wise to listen.........
one last thing, i am a firm believer in what comes around, goes around. my first boss and i once talked about my meager salary and he said that i had to start somewhere and i agreed but told him that once i had the time in that i would nail him for every penny i could. well he laughed and said he would welcome that. well i went back and flew contract for him in the big fire flap of 98' and i'll tell you what, i was making more per month than i did my whole first year working for him........
sure, some of the "oldtimers" may have just "walked" into a flying job but i would bet most had to put in time somehow. so like i said before, suck it up and get out there. your job is there just like mine was............
412driver
twinstar_ca
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i never cease to be amazed at how many of you had the guts and determination to hang in and make that dream come true...
412D, i hope broke and the others take the time to listen to the words of those who have been there...
412D, i hope broke and the others take the time to listen to the words of those who have been there...
