Good read for Newbies

[usa1]

And well they should for that's exactly what it is. Gone are the days of hot meals, amenities, etc. but the prices are pretty much the same. What do people expect? Flying isn't the mode of transportation of only the priviledged anymore. Pretty much everyone can afford it.

If you expect hot meals, amenities, etc on your flight, you're "dating" yourself. Just like an airline employee expecting the company to contribute to their 401K. Those days are long gone!

 

[VAflyGal]

If you expect hot meals, amenities, etc on your flight, you're "dating" yourself. Just like an airline employee expecting the company to contribute to their 401K. Those days are long gone!

Um, we get a 3% 401K contribution. Isn't much but it's better than nothing.

 

[Dog Wonder]

A good article .... Lots of facts .... Some fair-minded opinion, but allows the reader to decide. Something you don't see very often these days. Colgate ...??? .... Maybe that explains it. 😉

My question is ... why are you attacking him? :huh: Do you disagree with something in the article? :wacko:

Attacking him? Is Colgate Harvard?

Just pointing out the source was lacking the experience the 'newbies' have in aviation.

 

[redheadtempe33]

I think the years since deregulation have proven that the airline business does not lend itself to total deregulation and a free-market-winner-takes-all approach. Perhaps, a hybrid structure might work. Controlled prices on monopoly routes...some price flexibility on routes that have competition.

I do believe that a hybrid structure would work. Perhaps taking the industry average CASM ex-fuel, and setting a minimum an airline can charge for tickets per mile I think would help. That way, airlines could still compete on price and service, but we wouldn't see these $59 transcons that airlines sell. They may sell seats, but they are untimately self-defeating. They either bankrupt the airline who is selling them, or the airline's competitor who has to match.
I'm sure there are some out there who would claim that it is "communist" or what have you, but price floors are very common in the food industry (milk, corn, etc.) to prevent farmers froming going bust and have been around since the 30's.

 

[plane fixer]

As an airline industry "newbie" (less than 20 yrs.) I found the article posted by the original poster very informative and enjoyed reading the comments by other members of the forum. I wonder if the moderators would consider linking the other forum categories to this thread as it is applicable to the industry as a whole?

Thanks again "usa1" for posting this.

I also an inclined to agree that if deregulation had not occurred that the industry might be smaller but would be more stable and a bit insulated from the boom and bust of oil prices; just my opinion.

 

[usa1]

I agree with deregulation .... I have a problem with government oversight and intervention since.

Even before 9/11, United had entered into merger talks with US Airways, but due to antitrust concerns from John Ashcroft’s Justice Department, the plan was quashed mere weeks before 9/11. (Considering that both airlines declared bankruptcy in 2002, in United’s case lasting more than three years, the antitrust concerns were somewhat unwarranted given the subsequent events and the fact that much larger mergers have now taken place.)

Once competition reaches the breaking point in ANY industry you have to allow some consolidation. Since deregulation every government ruling has been an attack on industry wages in the name of cheap tickets. There has been NO balance.

Ironically, they called themselves looking out for American consumers. But what they did was run 2/3's of the industry into BK and via the PBGC placed our retirement burden on the American tax payers. the consumer?

Another example, they block consolidation until recently and at the same time propped up airlines after 9/11. Consolidation is far less painful than allowing a large company to just crash, in chapter 7. The government allowed neither, and basically crashed the industry from an investment and employment point of view.

Also look at how much of a ticket price is TAXES? The airlines are a HUGE tax collecting machine for the government? I don't know how any of them stay in business in this environment?

Maybe now that (DL-NW) and (UA-CO) have been allowed to consolidate things will start to improve.

PS: I apologize if the term Newbie upset anyone. I was only trying to point out that the article was a good snapshot going back to 1975.

More News: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/airlines-mount-legal-challenge-to-new-labor-rule-2010-05-11?siteid=yhoof

 

[usa1]

The US government has an abusive relationship with its airlines. They are loved enough that foreign buyers must keep out, but not so much that there is a coherent industrial policy or even clear rules under which a dysfunctional and serial loss-making sector might be rationalized.

LINK

 

[usa1]

LINK

Well here they come again ..... will they screw aviation employees for the 100th time, in the name of cheap tickets .... or will they let us start to heal?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704852004575258360148995860.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

 

[AstroLounge]

If you expect hot meals, amenities, etc on your flight, you're "dating" yourself. Just like an airline employee expecting the company to contribute to their 401K. Those days are long gone!

PRECISELY what the problem is with the Present Day Traveller. They ALL want/need/expect the perks (realistic or not) but have no desire/interest in PAYING for them. The self centered, sense of ENTITLEMENT doesn't go very far with Me. You get what You Pay For.........whether YOU are on an airplane, in a restaurant , at a hotel or at a car rental. Everyone likes to get a bargain every now and then but there are way too many people who feel "YOU OWE ME". Let me check your Company's books and show me how MUCH "You S*r*w*d Me". (The list is endless......Doctors,Dentists, Hospitals,Drug Manufacturers, Car Dealers and my favourite The Insurance Companies). Throw in our wonderful Federal Government and EVERYONE has their hand out for a freebie. It is one vicious circle but somehow the airlines are the whipping boy of a National Pity Party yet Southwest still comes out 'Smelling like a Rose'............and talk about a joke!

 

[SS255]

PRECISELY what the problem is with the Present Day Traveller. They ALL want/need/expect the perks (realistic or not) but have no desire/interest in PAYING for them. The self centered, sense of ENTITLEMENT doesn't go very far with Me. You get what You Pay For.........whether YOU are on an airplane, in a restaurant , at a hotel or at a car rental.

Except that on an airplane, you might be paying a full Y fare, but you're sitting in the middle seat in row 29. And the guy on the aisle paid 1/5 of what you did, and gets the exact same thing......only with slightly more comfort.

If the airline industry expects the flying public to stop acting entitled, then they have to price the product with parity and not stick the customers with change fees that cost more than the ticket itself.

 

[AstroLounge]

Except that on an airplane, you might be paying a full Y fare, but you're sitting in the middle seat in row 29. And the guy on the aisle paid 1/5 of what you did, and gets the exact same thing......only with slightly more comfort.

If the airline industry expects the flying public to stop acting entitled, then they have to price the product with parity and not stick the customers with change fees that cost more than the ticket itself.

Where the problem lies is with the low cost carriers that intentionally sell the seats below costs (knowing that the larger legacy carriers have no choice but match in price).There are certain perks that they COULD allow in the overall pricing structure but there are still many people that are no shows (which accounts for overbooking a flight) and standbys always clamouring to get on an earlier flight just because THEY SEE there IS an EARLIER Flight. There has to be rules/guidelines from which to operate from. People want UNLIMITED upgrades and expect a meal service in F/C on even 1hour flights just because they are members of a FF program. That is unrealistic. I am all for an enhanced F/C product on all the legacy carriers (and esp US) but please SHOW ME who is willing TO PAY for it. Using miles to upgrade doesn't pay for the shrimp cocktails,hot entrees and champaign that many of You expect. The airlines have CREATED a Love/Hate relationship with their most Frequent Flyers over the years.....the more perks that were offered, there were more expected. (The "You OWE ME Syndrome"). For many of of the so-called Elites who frequent these Boards I for one would really like to see a detailed itenerary of your travels and your so called "loyalty" that you have to ANY certain carrier. And let's not fool ourselves. You are booking with whoever, and whenever with ANY carrier who can get you from point A-to-B with minimal inconvenience to YOU and a schedule that FITS your parameters.These airline Management Teams know YOUR GAME and are simply 'tweaking' THEIR GAME. It's all a Chess Game.......all about strategy. There are many changes that could occur but the relentless complaining about the legacy carriers (in particular) public diatribes that the employees are subjected too have really accomplished little over time. It's simple business. The airlines are not Charity Organizations. (I could give YOU a L-o-n-g Laundry list of things that I don't like too............and pretty much all of them would have a check mark emphasizing F*Up!)

 

[john john]

here we go

 

[SS255]

People want UNLIMITED upgrades and expect a meal service in F/C on even 1hour flights just because they are members of a FF program. That is unrealistic. I am all for an enhanced F/C product on all the legacy carriers (and esp US) but please SHOW ME who is willing TO PAY for it. Using miles to upgrade doesn't pay for the shrimp cocktails,hot entrees and champaign that many of You expect. The airlines have CREATED a Love/Hate relationship with their most Frequent Flyers over the years.....the more perks that were offered, there were more expected. (The "You OWE ME Syndrome"). For many of of the so-called Elites who frequent these Boards I for one would really like to see a detailed itenerary of your travels and your so called "loyalty" that you have to ANY certain carrier. And let's not fool ourselves. You are booking with whoever, and whenever with ANY carrier who can get you from point A-to-B with minimal inconvenience to YOU and a schedule that FITS your parameters.

People who fly CO in F. (And I'm not talking about myself, because my "free" upgrade percentage on CO is abysmal, due to all of the paid F fares. ) US prices their F product much higher than CO, and you get a lot less. As a result, when customers have a choice and are prepared to pay for F, they fly CO.

I tried to did sample fare comparison PHL-IAH-PHL non-stops on Saturday, July 24, returning Mondday, July 26 to prove my point. My findings were as follows:

1) USAirways.com is showing F sold out on all nonstop routes both days on their website, which I find very hard to believe -- especially considering that July 24 is a Saturday.

2) If you search for Preferred Upgrade Fare (i.e. instantly upgradeable upgrade for elites), the R/T fare is $1,364, including taxes and fees. You get 100% miles & elite qualifying miles. If you are not Preferred, you cannot even buy F, although I suppose if you call and are willing to pay $25 on top of the F fare, an agent will book you in F.

3) If you search on CO's site, the lowest F fare is $929, including taxes and fees. If you are a Platinum on CO, you can book an M fare for $585.90, including taxes and fees, and confirm F instantly. Silvers and Golds can buy a B fare for $809.90, including taxes and fees, and confirm F instantly. AND B fares earn 150% RDM's and EQM's. And get this: If you are not an elite with CO, you can actually buy F, because their website works!!!

I agree wholeheartedly that it's bad business to "give away" your product, but the way US has approached their revenue management has created a scenario where nearly everybody sitting in F is an upgrader on a cheap ticket. They cannot even sell F to those who want to buy it, because the website shows it as sold out. But of course, it's the customers' fault, because all we really care about it free upgrades.

 

[AstroLounge]

there You go again with the "poor little old Me" scenario.............it's that ME!ME!ME! inference that REALLY grates on most of us. "IF" you try to book a ticket on Airline "X" (whomever it may be) and it shows there are NO SEATS available- take it as THERE ARE NO SEATS available. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. NONE. Just Move On, and let it go. I cannot even fathom to relay how many requests I get for "Special Requests" or extended privledges, JUST BECAUSE.......the list is endless. The airlines are NO Different than any other Company and appreciate a customers business (i am sure many of you will have a Whiney Story to dispute this though) but many people really have that "You Owe Me" attitude and THAT is what is sickening. If the chronic complainers have ALL the Solutions to HOW AN AIRLINE should Operate, or WHAT THEY NEED TO DO to "Better Serve their Customers" what, and I do emphasize W-H-A-T is stopping You from starting Your Own Airline? There are CHOICES out there and NOT every airline is determined to cater to every whim of every traveller. SPIRIT is a prime example..........they have a right to offer a product that suits THEM. If a customer is so up in arms against their policies..........move on. Just keep your commentary to yourself. It is their Company, NOT Yours. It's pretty simple.

 

[redheadtempe33]

People who fly CO in F. (And I'm not talking about myself, because my "free" upgrade percentage on CO is abysmal, due to all of the paid F fares. ) US prices their F product much higher than CO, and you get a lot less. As a result, when customers have a choice and are prepared to pay for F, they fly CO.

I tried to did sample fare comparison PHL-IAH-PHL non-stops on Saturday, July 24, returning Mondday, July 26 to prove my point. My findings were as follows:

1) USAirways.com is showing F sold out on all nonstop routes both days on their website, which I find very hard to believe -- especially considering that July 24 is a Saturday.

2) If you search for Preferred Upgrade Fare (i.e. instantly upgradeable upgrade for elites), the R/T fare is $1,364, including taxes and fees. You get 100% miles & elite qualifying miles. If you are not Preferred, you cannot even buy F, although I suppose if you call and are willing to pay $25 on top of the F fare, an agent will book you in F.

3) If you search on CO's site, the lowest F fare is $929, including taxes and fees. If you are a Platinum on CO, you can book an M fare for $585.90, including taxes and fees, and confirm F instantly. Silvers and Golds can buy a B fare for $809.90, including taxes and fees, and confirm F instantly. AND B fares earn 150% RDM's and EQM's. And get this: If you are not an elite with CO, you can actually buy F, because their website works!!!

I agree wholeheartedly that it's bad business to "give away" your product, but the way US has approached their revenue management has created a scenario where nearly everybody sitting in F is an upgrader on a cheap ticket. They cannot even sell F to those who want to buy it, because the website shows it as sold out. But of course, it's the customers' fault, because all we really care about it free upgrades.

The website works fine. The flights you are referring to are express flights with Republic. There is no first class on the planes. Not that I want to blame the customer, but you might want to look closer next time before you write your diatribe.
The non-refundable coach fare is $298+tax. Pretty reasonable IMHO.
It apppears that PHX-IAH is the only route where CO mainline competes with US mainline and US 1st class is $20.00 cheaper for those dates.

EDIT: They compete PHX-EWR as well and US is $382 cheaper for 1st for those same dates.