Gate agents, ticket agents and reservation agents vote "No"

[deltaflyboy]

The Delta Employees will feel sharp severe paycuts quickly if the airline industry tailspins and layoffs quickler than unionized employees would. And DELTA wont even need a CH11 to liquidate their employees vs unionized employees. Ive been on both sides of the fence and believe me it is 1000000% better being unionized than non unionized.

Delta has already been thru bankruptcy with a non-union workforce, and we survived just fine...We had our pay cut and benefits reduced - but so did the union employees of other airlines who were struggling at the time...union employees were not treated any better or worse then we were...

I too have dealt with unions, and hope to never have to deal with them again...

 

[Kev3188]

The dispatchers didnt have a choice - they were voting between the union that represented the NWA dispatchers and the union that represented the DL dispatchers....

They could've chosen to go union free.

everyone knows that once a union gets on property at airline you can go back and forth between different unions but going union free is impossible - according to the NMB it is logistically possible "on paper" but like most other govt agencies, they always make stuff sound good on paper but not reachable in the real world...

No, everyone does *not* know that. The same steps to both secure representation and decertify are the same. Both take a lot of time/energy/resources. I find it amusing that DL constantly tells us how "easy" it is to bring a union in in a year, but describes the decertification process (essentially the same procedure) as "nearly impossible."

The mailings that the IAM sent was extremely misleading...they were sending out A-cards telling agents that if they dont sign the card and return it they wouldnt be allowed to vote in the election, which is sorta true by going the round about sorta way - to have the election they needed the A-cards signed but you can vote in the election without signing the A-cards...verbally, the IAM folks were telling all sorts of half-truths and down right lies...

Many of the mailings we received from DL were misleading as well.

What are some specific examples of "down right lies" you allegedly heard? When you say "the IAM folks," are you implying that every single labor advocate was lying?

 

[DAL Mech]

The Delta Employees will feel sharp severe paycuts quickly if the airline industry tailspins and layoffs quickler than unionized employees would. And DELTA wont even need a CH11 to liquidate their employees vs unionized employees. Ive been on both sides of the fence and believe me it is 1000000% better being unionized than non unionized.

Really? In '04-'05 Delta certainly wasnt the first to lay or administer pay cuts. When I was on furlough I talked to many American and United mechanics, not a one was very pleased with the way they were treated.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Really? In '04-'05 Delta certainly wasnt the first to lay or administer pay cuts. When I was on furlough I talked to many American and United mechanics, not a one was very pleased with the way they were treated.

The simple fact is that of the 4 network airlines that filed for BK in the decade of 2000-2009, DL had the SMALLEST percentage of its workforce that was laid off. UA and US both laid off more than 50% of their workforce during the decade (including the combined workforce that formed the new USAirways) while NW was at 40% and DL at 35%. As for average salaries and compensation (total compensation) per employee, all of the network airlines started the decade at about $100K/employee and ended the decade around $90K. During BK, compensation dropped to $80K, largely because pension benefits were not paid. CO entered the decade at about $60K/employee reflecting the residual effect of their BKs in the 1990s which resulted in a lower seniority workforce, lower pension expenses (because fewer employees were at the top of the pay scale), and because CO was rapidly growing, which kept average wages down.
AA's mainline employee costs are very similar to those at the network carriers... what AA does not have that the previously BK carriers had is increased productivity.

The single largest factor that effected the number of employees that were laid off was whether the airline grew DURING and AFTER its BK. On that count, DL and CO are the ONLY US network airlines that had more capacity by 2007 (at the time of the DL/NW merger) than they did in 2000. Even in the past year, DL is adding capacity to its mainline system through larger aircraft (buying used MD90s, adding seats to most domestic fleet types) while reducing capacity from its regional carriers - moves which are both good for mainline DL employees.

The simple fact is that DL management's aggressive growth policy post BK - similar to what CO did 10 years before - was responsible for minimizing the number of reductions.
DL's international growth plan for 2011 is larger than all of the other US airlines unless someone comes up with a number of new route announcements - not likely at this point in the year.

DL also has the lowest cost per seat mile of the mainline network carriers because of its continued growth (those new employees they are bringing on will make less than the topped out employees at other airlines) - the same strategy of keeping costs down that WN and B6 have used.
Further, the network carriers who came out of BK gained largely productivity increased through a combination of growth (moreso at DL) and workrule changes (more predominant at US and UA).

CO's growth rate has slowed significantly in the last few years - as their fleet spending has slowed, largely waiting for the 787.. and with it CO's costs have gone up. CO and UA will combine at a cost structure that will be closer to AA's costs (which are the highest in the US industry) than the historically best in class costs which allowed CO to grow for much of the period until 2005 when the network carriers were dramatically cutting capacity.

It is growth, not union or non-union status that determined the number of employees that were laid off. It is precisely the same strategy that allowed WN and B6 to grow post 9/11 while the network carriers were shrinking. Further, employees in the US network airline industry are largely at similar AVERAGE total compensation levels, regardless of whether the carrier went through bankruptcy or not.

 

[700UW]

Guess the DL employees dont remember Leadership 7 and its effects.

And DL contracted out the majority of its ramp, closed hangars in TPA and DFW and now sends planes all over the world for Heavy Maintenance.

 

[southwind]

... and 2918 that somehow couldn't be bothered to vote.

BOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Which would probably mean another 2918 "No" votes anyway !

Moot point !

 

[Kev3188]

You clearly missed the point. Whether they would've voted yes or no wasn't the point. The fact that almost 3k couldn't be bothered to weigh in on something so important is inexcusable.

 

[big jimmy]

Kev, I have to agree with most of your posts. Unions are needed now more then ever in order to keep what few rights workers have gained over these many years. 3000 not caring enough to vote in a mater that is so important in their daily lives is sad and pathetic. With the outcome of the vote it appears that pirates and dispatchers will be the few that continue with representation. I have belonged to the iam in the past and also victim of their treachery. I know
I also would have chosen no representation if the iam was my only choice. Would not vote for the teamsters either. Like our government the system has become corrupt, money seems the only driving force with the core values of representing your constituents having fallen by the wayside. What is in it for me and how do I continue the scam is all they are interested in.

But in the end if the new delta is to survive (I hope they do my pension is riding on it), anderson and the boys must be replaced. I think in the long run they find out it was cheaper to deal with the iam then to try and keep the employees happy by keeping them out. No one will sign a concessionary contract quicker than he iam. And maybe the the delta employees looked around other airlines and asked them selves do they really have it better than I do?
Because the iam has done so little for airline employees these last 30 years, they have signed their own death warrant. If they stood a chance it was now, with the recent changes to voting rules.

Guys like marv sadrin just have to look in the mirror to know why they lost. With the board of dictators and the leadership team you have, prayer is what you the delta employees need now. Leopards don't change their spots.

 

[WorldTraveler]

But in the end if the new delta is to survive (I hope they do my pension is riding on it), anderson and the boys must be replaced. I think in the long run they find out it was cheaper to deal with the iam then to try and keep the employees happy by keeping them out. No one will sign a concessionary contract quicker than he iam.

Jimmy,
In all honesty, just curious as to why you think Anderson and the current management team has to go to in order for DL to survive?
DL has reporeted the best finances among the network carriers in the recent quarter... has executed the merger nearly flawlessly... and has worked very quickly to break down the barriers between PMDL and PMNW, including adding most of its growth in PMNW hubs. I just flew through DTW on one of DL's newest int'l flights, GRU-JFK. Perhaps you missed that DL's transpacific RASM growth was the best in the US industry in the most recent quarter despite adding the most capacity and DL is expanding DTW's global impact by adding S. America service. I personally spoke with Brazilian passengers who were connecting to Asia via DTW, creating new revenue streams than were possible before. Do you also realize that DL's Asian operation at DTW by next summer when HND and PEK are operating will make DTW the 2nd largest transpac gateway in the US by a single carrier only slightly smaller than UA at SFO and larger than AA and UA at ORD COMBINED? Do you also realize that Latin America, Africa, and Asia are home to some of the fastest growing economies in the world and that is exactly where DL is growing most aggressively.
In fact, DL is using the combination of DL and NW strengths to grow revenue which provides the strongest future for all DL stakeholders, including employees.

DO you also realize that the combined UA and CO in 2011 will be smaller than the sum of the two in 2010? While every other network carrier is adding more regional capacity, DL is shrinking its regional carrier operations while also being the only US network carrier that is adding capacity to its mainline network?

Whether Anderson is seen as friendly to labor is a separate question but I honestly am not sure what more Anderson or other DL execs needs to do in order to ensure DL's success - or what someone else could do.

Also not sure why you believe that DL has to pay more to keep labor peace that what they are paying now. You do realize that DL's labor CASM right now is the lowest of the big 3 network airlines, which gives DL some headroom.... but again when revenue performance is strong, which is exactly DL say would be when you combine the strengths of DL and NW, it is very possible to increase pay for employees.

The best compensation and job security comes when a company can add new revenue streams while increasing performance of existing ones.

Let me know how you believe that DL could be doing any better job in these regards or how anyone else could do a better job.

 

[big jimmy]

Jimmy,
In all honesty, just curious as to why you think Anderson and the current management team has to go to in order for DL to survive?
DL has reporeted the best finances among the network carriers in the recent quarter... has executed the merger nearly flawlessly... and has worked very quickly to break down the barriers between PMDL and PMNW, including adding most of its growth in PMNW hubs. I just flew through DTW on one of DL's newest int'l flights, GRU-JFK. Perhaps you missed that DL's transpacific RASM growth was the best in the US industry in the most recent quarter despite adding the most capacity and DL is expanding DTW's global impact by adding S. America service. I personally spoke with Brazilian passengers who were connecting to Asia via DTW, creating new revenue streams than were possible before. Do you also realize that DL's Asian operation at DTW by next summer when HND and PEK are operating will make DTW the 2nd largest transpac gateway in the US by a single carrier only slightly smaller than UA at SFO and larger than AA and UA at ORD COMBINED? Do you also realize that Latin America, Africa, and Asia are home to some of the fastest growing economies in the world and that is exactly where DL is growing most aggressively.
In fact, DL is using the combination of DL and NW strengths to grow revenue which provides the strongest future for all DL stakeholders, including employees.

DO you also realize that the combined UA and CO in 2011 will be smaller than the sum of the two in 2010? While every other network carrier is adding more regional capacity, DL is shrinking its regional carrier operations while also being the only US network carrier that is adding capacity to its mainline network?

Whether Anderson is seen as friendly to labor is a separate question but I honestly am not sure what more Anderson or other DL execs needs to do in order to ensure DL's success - or what someone else could do.

Also not sure why you believe that DL has to pay more to keep labor peace that what they are paying now. You do realize that DL's labor CASM right now is the lowest of the big 3 network airlines, which gives DL some headroom.... but again when revenue performance is strong, which is exactly DL say would be when you combine the strengths of DL and NW, it is very possible to increase pay for employees.

The best compensation and job security comes when a company can add new revenue streams while increasing performance of existing ones.

Let me know how you believe that DL could be doing any better job in these regards or how anyone else could do a better job.

I thought I had.
"Leopards don't change their spots."
Doesn't sound like you need a history lesson as you seem versed in the aviation business. I maybe wrong, time will tell. Like I said I much prefer they survive (purely $$$). I have just seen first hand what they are capable of. Remember NW made a profit longer than anyone in the business before these guys got a hold of it. And it had done all of the above with a better on time record than anyone with less personal per aircraft and the oldest fleet in the industry.

"Also not sure why you believe that DL has to pay more to keep labor peace that what they are paying now."
Read it again, with the iam they could actually pay less. They will sign anything to keep dues rolling in.

"has executed the merger nearly flawlessly" could be but that is not what I have heard from employees.

And you are now the least safest major carrier, something to be proud of?

 

[Kev3188]

WT--

None of what you posted matters in this context. As long as Anderson is in charge, there will be mistrust from the PMNW side of the house simply because of his past action(s). That's just how it is.

 

[robbedagain]

I thought he had the ceo of nwa in aug of 05 or 08 when the mechanics went on strike? andif so he sure wasnt the labor friendly person then so why would he have a change of heart for delta folks?

 

[WorldTraveler]

All three of these replies indicate that the distrust of Anderson is due to his labor issues, not because of his management of the airline or its finances.

I don't doubt for a minute that NW's labor unions and management had a bad relationship and to be honest, NW's labor-mgmt relationship was not considered to be healthy even in the airline industry for years. Further, PMDL employees and DL mgmt seem to be of a similar mindset that they don't want to transfer any of the PMNW-union relationship to DL. AA's labor mgmt relationship has now become the most problematic in the industry.

Yes, NW had a number of notable accomplishments including being a very well run company financially... and yes, they did a remarkable job with a fleet that others no longer wanted. But you also have to look at the industry as a whole and NW's most recent leadership stepped in to turn things around just as things went really bad in the industry. NW also was not the most profitable US airline in the late 90s - the last highpoint of the industry. Depending on the metric, that would either go to UA or DL. On a margin basis, DL was the profitable US network airline while flying 30 year old L1011s up and down the east coast connecting people to Florida - which goes to show how quickly profitable strategies can change.

I also would assert that part of NW's strategic downfall was that they no longer had the tools to compete effectively against global air carriers. NW waited very patiently for the 787 but they probably could have continued to grow if they had an airplane like the 777 that could have been used to develop DTW-Asia. It is not a surprise that DL is building its new Pacific network on NW's hubs using DL's long haul planes. Further, DL's presence in the NE is essential to compete for the biggest corporate accounts. NW had all the right DNA but was missing some key ingredients in its quest to be able to effectively compete against larger carriers.

But my point is simply that DL mgmt by all measures I can see is running about as good of an airline as can occur in the network industry and because they are growing the airline and shifting work to mainline and away from regional carriers, are benefitting mainline employees.

"least safest" airline? really? do tell me how? Maybe I missed something but in the FAA's recent crackdown of the industry, I don't think PMDL has been fined anything while others have... but maybe I missed an announcement or two... in which case I'm sure you'll remind me. Or if there was some other assessment of safety in which DL has been shown to be at the bottom of the industry.

Customer service metrics? For sure still in need of work.

But it is also a mistake to assume that DL NEEDS or WANTS to pay its employees bottom of the barrel wages even if they could. I don't think anyone expects they will get rich in the airline industry but being paid industry average wages - a target DL has espoused - is reasonable, even if "Average" is a consistently changing target.

 

[P. REZ]

All three of these replies indicate that the distrust of Anderson is due to his labor issues, not because of his management of the airline or its finances.

I don't doubt for a minute that NW's labor unions and management had a bad relationship and to be honest, NW's labor-mgmt relationship was not considered to be healthy even in the airline industry for years. Further, PMDL employees and DL mgmt seem to be of a similar mindset that they don't want to transfer any of the PMNW-union relationship to DL. AA's labor mgmt relationship has now become the most problematic in the industry.

Yes, NW had a number of notable accomplishments including being a very well run company financially... and yes, they did a remarkable job with a fleet that others no longer wanted. But you also have to look at the industry as a whole and NW's most recent leadership stepped in to turn things around just as things went really bad in the industry. NW also was not the most profitable US airline in the late 90s - the last highpoint of the industry. Depending on the metric, that would either go to UA or DL. On a margin basis, DL was the profitable US network airline while flying 30 year old L1011s up and down the east coast connecting people to Florida - which goes to show how quickly profitable strategies can change.

I also would assert that part of NW's strategic downfall was that they no longer had the tools to compete effectively against global air carriers. NW waited very patiently for the 787 but they probably could have continued to grow if they had an airplane like the 777 that could have been used to develop DTW-Asia. It is not a surprise that DL is building its new Pacific network on NW's hubs using DL's long haul planes. Further, DL's presence in the NE is essential to compete for the biggest corporate accounts. NW had all the right DNA but was missing some key ingredients in its quest to be able to effectively compete against larger carriers.

But my point is simply that DL mgmt by all measures I can see is running about as good of an airline as can occur in the network industry and because they are growing the airline and shifting work to mainline and away from regional carriers, are benefitting mainline employees.

"least safest" airline? really? do tell me how? Maybe I missed something but in the FAA's recent crackdown of the industry, I don't think PMDL has been fined anything while others have... but maybe I missed an announcement or two... in which case I'm sure you'll remind me. Or if there was some other assessment of safety in which DL has been shown to be at the bottom of the industry.

Customer service metrics? For sure still in need of work.

But it is also a mistake to assume that DL NEEDS or WANTS to pay its employees bottom of the barrel wages even if they could. I don't think anyone expects they will get rich in the airline industry but being paid industry average wages - a target DL has espoused - is reasonable, even if "Average" is a consistently changing target.

Average is what you can expect, you deserve what you aspire for.

 

[Bob Owens]

Really? In '04-'05 Delta certainly wasnt the first to lay or administer pay cuts. When I was on furlough I talked to many American and United mechanics, not a one was very pleased with the way they were treated.

I always thought that one of the promises that Delta had was "no layoffs"once you reach Full time status? They also used to pay either near or at Top of the Industry. Well Southwests Unionized Mechanics are at around $45/hr, how much are you guys making? Another broken promise? Whats the story with your pension? I hear they have some weird thing going on with Social Security offsetting your pension, unclear, its hard to get info out of Delta people, people are afraid to speak out over there because Delta likes to fire people who speak too much.

The Pilots kept their union, so did the dispatchers and they both make more than you. The Dispatcher training is less than half as long as that of an A&P and they dont work outside. Stay Non-union along with the low paid Agents and FAs and watch the gap between the Pilots/Dispatchers and all you non-union folks grow, or you can do like you've always done and wait for the unionized workers to set the rates and hope that Delta keeps that promise.