Fatique Risk Management

[Blackmac]

I thought I would resurrect this thread for Arctic Front as he has shown some interest in it, as should most other people.

Any new idea's, so we are not caught with our finger up bum or whatever.

TC did not set a deadline for responce as they have a tendacy to change their mind.

It is supposed to be by the end of the year, so don't wait till the last minute or think that HAC is going to be there on your behalf, they have already given a no brainer responce at the last meeting.

Look after your own interests, through association.

Cheers, Don

 

[Blackmac]

Arctic Front: Looks like we both had the same idea, GOOD POST.

I only hope we can wake up more people.

Cheers, Don

 

[amodao]

I would like to see the day when engineers, bound by a fixed 14-15 hour duty day, could keep track of their own 30, 60 , 90 day totals. Like the pilots, TC will give an operator an out inregards to unforseen maintenance action requirements and an extension to the hours worked will be adjusted on a 30/60/90 days basis. With aviation falling under the Federal hour averaging system it will be difficult for the govenment to regulate employee hours when this system was implemented to address cyclic industries such as transportation. When it comes down to the nitty gritty it is up to the individual AME to know their limit and if the regulation passes it still won't fix the underlying issues facing Canada's aviation industry. This issue has been batted around the CARAC for years and even with input from various AME associations it is still TC that decides whether or not a CAR is implemented.
I am not personally concerned or worried because like all things, including food, it all eventually turns into sheep dip. :censored:

 

[3BX2]

You've all heard of Pilots double crewing on a fire, ever heard of a company double crewing an Engineer???? Only way that remotely happens is if a company has 2 aircraft on that fire.

Poor wrench is doing a phase on a '12 ever other day.....PLUS babysitting 2 pilots for 18 hours !

 

[Mole]

Its not the helicopters that take up your time its the fuel moves, aircraft refuleling, ops gear repairs and those pesky customers. Maybe a engineer performing a 15 hour duty day actually wrenching on an aircraft should seek additional help. If the wrench can't manage his time to do the fixing then the company should send out a 100 Hr wonder to do the ops gear, fueling and customer relation duties and let the engineer rest. Unless its a heavy I don't think a aircraft requires more than one wrench to do routine maintenance and inspections in the field.
:bleh:

 

[graunch1]

Interesting conversation. The biggest problem I see in all of this is the AME themselves. Personally I have put in 24 hour days when the aircraft just had to get out. Oftm you are expected to be tough and "do your bit" to ensure the a/c is on the gate on time ("don't give me any of that Human Factors crap--make sure the a/c is ready for 06:00"). Most AMEs have such a strong work ethic that they think nothing of going the extra mile to make it work instead of pulling a pilot thing and saying . "I'm too tired" who's the dummy ??


It is ok to pull a long shift once in a while but when it becomes the normal mode of operation because the company won't hire anymore staff then it becomes dangerous.
I once worked for 3 months on a project that required 12 hours per day 6-7 days per week.. We decided to only work 6 days per week and rest on the 7th. After 2 months of this we were making all kinds of minor dumb mistakes. What most people don't realize is that the body cannot recover in 24 hours from cronic fatigue.

All this being said, TC has its head so far up you know where that they have no concept of the hours AMEs put in. At a AME conference a couple years ago some twinkle-toes from Ottawa announced the results of a survey TC did that showed that many AMES were constantly fatigued and short of sleep. She seemed surprized at the results (as any 9-3 buareucrat would be). The 300 or so AMEs in the room just nodded their heads and collectively muttered "Yup, so what's new"

I think a new rule should be incorporated but I can't see it being administed by the AMO who are the original problem in ht efirst place due to poor planning, lack of resources and tightness of wallets

 

[Elvis]

Execellent post graunch.

 

[CD]

In case you missed this particular meeting announcement...

Special Joint Technical Committee Meeting on Maintenance and Manufacturing (M&M)-Part V and Commercial Air Service Operations (CASO)-Part VII
September 13-16, 2004

Fatigue Risk Management System

There is currently no regulation addressing the management of fatigue related hazards in aviation maintenance. Nor is there a duty time limitation prohibiting excessive shift durations and consecutive days of work. This proposed amendment provides for the implementation of a fatigue risk management system in approved maintenance organizations.

NPA 2004-059

NPA 2004-060


Here is one summary of the last review of this proposal from March:
The Ontario AME Association

 

[MagSeal]

I'm guessing if a system gets put in place somewhere in the future, honesty will play a huge factor.

I'm pretty sure most will use the system to their advantage, but if hours on duty get linked with hours pay, you may find guys padding the hours to the side that will benifit their bank account.

One example I will share with you guys of playing numbers in your favour, was working down in the United States. Our fuel truck was considered a commercial vehicle and the driver was subject to following the duty days that truckers must follow. It would have been impossible to drive to staging, be on duty as a mechanic all day and drive back to town and stay with-in the duty days set out for truck drivers.

To rectify it, the duty day for the truck driving was started on the drive back to town at the end of the day in the evening, followed by a rest period (which was normal sleepy time), and finished with the morning drive back to staging. This was a much shorter time frame versus the other way around. Sure, you can call it forgery or whatever, but it kept the state troopers off your A$$. In essence I was a truck driver by night, maintenance engineer by day, I won't call myself a superhero....but you can.

 

[ndt3]

MagSeal

The greatest revolution of our life's is the discovery that as individuals we can change the outer aspects of our lives by changing the inner attitudes of our minds.

 

[helidude]

Quest-ce que what????

 

[Elvis]

ndt3.. You sound like the kind of person that can't decide if the glass is half full or half empty.

As far as I am concerned it dosen't mater it's time to order another beer.

:elvis: :elvis:

 

[ndt3]

People see the world as a reflection of themselves.

 

[MagSeal]

hey Mr Philosophy (AKA ndt3)....

explain this reflection thing....

I see myself as a "jerk" Now before everyone agrees with me for all the wrong reasons, remember, a jerk is a tug, a tug, is a boat, a boat floats on water, water is nature, and nature is beautiful....

I guess I am a "jerk" after all.

Have a good day Mr ndt3, one day you will graduate to ndt4... the level reserved for the elite.

 

[ndt3]

Mag Seal,

I once heard a learned man say " Every evil has its remedy, except folly."
To reprimand an obstinate fool or to preach to a dolt is like writing upon water.

Mr Seal, you have helped the blind, the halt, the palsied and the leprous, keep up the good work and remember what Rodney D also said, " If you do nothing, you get nothing - its that simple.