Exec: Delta Unprepared for Pilots' Strike (AP)

[WorldTraveler]

DALPA's lawyers were quoted during yesterday's hearing that they would settle right now if they had assurance that DL would not terminate their pension plans which the company cannot promise to do until Washington acts on pension reform - which is expected to be taken up in the House before Christmas. Honestly, I have to agree w/ the pilots that they fear they will sign another heavily concessionary contract only to have their pension plans terminated which will not be reflected in their contract. It seems that pensions are the number one issue and the best thing both parties could do would be to sign a contract that gives the companies the cuts they are asking for - with consideration for the increased RJ flying being requested - along w/ stipulations that DL will reopen the contract if they terminate the pensions. This case is being played out more in Washington that bankruptcy court in New York; DL wants to let the feds know loud and clear that they will terminate the pension plans in Washington doesn't act. Given pension reform, DL's pension liabilities are manageable. As I have said before, I believe DL will receive pension reform, willretain its pension plans, and will be in a different class of airline for employees than UA or US where those employees have lost their pension benefits with nowhere close to any consideration for the pain they have endured.

 

[savyinvestor]

My point was doctors have significant expenses that pilots don't have. This needs to be looked at when comparing incomes. In addition, I believe pilots in Europe are legally responsible for their mistakes that cause injury, but not in the US. Savy

 

[MMB]

Hi 767jetz,

> I see you just registered in the wee hours of the morning to post that crap.

I see I got your attention. You really shouldn't start out with a crude insult; it weakens your argument. You do pick up a bit though, so …

> For your very first post on this forum, you sure did come out swinging.
> Hmmmm… Wouldn’t happen to be CH.12 posting under a different identity,
> would you???

Nope.

> To say pilots are not concerned with lives is absolute ignorance.

I didn’t say pilots aren’t concerned with lives. Pilots are very concerned with lives. As a group, the lives they are most concerned with are locked in a small room up front.

> While I do agree that there are many other people involved in the complex process
> of moving a huge piece of aluminum filled with fuel, people, and cargo from point
> A to point B, and that they all play a role in the safety of the passengers
> to one degree or another, it is the pilots who are the final decision makers and
> shoulder the most responsibility.

The pilot is always, well, most of the time, motivated to do a good job, regardless of experience or pay scale. It is called self preservation. On the other hand, do you want someone fueling your plane who doesn’t care what they are loading in the tanks? How about a load planner who is just too tired from having to work two jobs to run the actual numbers and just goes by the standard figures? Maybe you wouldn’t mind a backyard motorcycle mechanic rigging your fuel or flight control systems.

> This is not just in practice but by law.
> If the CG is off, or the fuel load inaccurate, or the routing is not safe, etc.
> etc., and the pilot does not catch the error, it is he who is responsible. Hence
> the saying, “if anyone screws up, it’s the captains fault.†Pilots oversee the
> entire operation and must have knowledge and understanding of each and every step
> in the process. Not so for other people. Simple fact: Pilots have training,
> experience, and understanding of everyone else’s job.

Interesting. Does that mean the pilot was responsible for the crash of United flight 232? Or the Delta MD-88 fan hub that came apart and killed two people? And I thought those were fatigue failures that were missed during engine overhaul! Can you tell me how the pilot could have caught those? Yet he is responsible? Do you know, for an absolute fact, that every control cable on your plane has proper safeties? That you have Jet A and not glycol in your tanks? If you don’t have personal knowledge of these, and it is in fact your responsibility, are you in violation for accepting the plane?

The crew of the Delta 727 takeoff crash at DFW, on August 31, 1988, was caused by pilots who was more concerned with talking to the female flight attendants during a critical safety period (during taxi-out, which by law is a sterile cockpit period), than with performing their proper safety duties. This does, by the way, show up the other thing pilots are concerned with.

> (metrology, flight planning,
> weight & balance, ATC, maintenance, engineering, evacuation, fire fighting, security,
> and on and on…) Other’s are specifically trained for their field.

In that case, these should be easy for you:
- How many bolts hold the engine on the pylon of a 767? Where are they?
- You check your logbook and see that the left main strut was repacked the night before and that the mechanic used a seal, part number 7437MT987. Did he use the right one?
- What is the difference between Jet A and Jet A-1? What would be a natural condition that would make one unusable but not the other?
- What conditions are necessary for the formation of cirrus clouds?
- Which is more important during taxi out; the pre-takeoff check list, or making a date with the new F/A?
- How many actual life and death decisions does an average airline pilot make over a carrier? How about a New York City bus driver?

> You are certainly entitled to have your opinion. Like a certain part of the anatomy,
> every one’s got one.

Thank you.

> But before you spout off as some expert,

Did I say I was an expert on something? I don’t think so. I do have a smattering of experience in a few areas of aviation, but I am not an expert.

> perhaps you should
> read the whole thread and understand the gist of people’s points.

I did. I thought many of the original points were covered very well, and from several points of view. The arrogance expressed by some, (not all!) pilots though, is a bit much

> I was trying to
> open the eyes of a person who claims that all pilots do is perform a “technical
> function.â€

OH! Like when you tell your kid, “I’ve told you a million times …†when you actually mean, “I told you about that once before.†Or when you tell the FAA inspector, “Honis, I only had one tini gwass of wine, and tat was wiff dinner 10 hour ago.†No, that never (Virgin Atlantic) happens, does it?

> And by the way, even ferry flights can kill people on the ground! Perhaps you are not
> familiar with the crash of Concorde. As they were headed for a large hotel filled with
> people, in the last seconds of their doomed flight, they veered away to spare whatever
> lives possible. They were credited with saving the lives of everyone in that hotel.

Excuse me? The plane went nose vertical and then rolled to near inverted before it HIT the hotel. I doubt the pilot was even in control of his bowels.

> After the crash of flight 232 in a corn field in Iowa, the first thing the captain
> was concerned with was how many people survived. He was quoted later as saying
> that he knew if he brought the jet down anywhere on a airport he could save as many
> lives as possible.

Yes, he did an exceptional job, didn’t he? Subsequent simulator tests showed that other DC-10 crews were unable to repeat the feat. Fortunately, the crew had the assistance of a passenger who was a United training and check pilot with over 3,000 hours on the DC-10, and a sharp eyed flight attendant who recognized damage to the aircraft's horizontal stabilizer that the check pilot failed to find during a pointed search. And I’m sure self preservation played no part in this. If 232 had otherwise been empty, the pilot would have ridden the plane in for a fiery crash hollering Woo-Hoo!

> Now, please go crawl back under your rock.

Sorry, I don’t own one. However, it appears that you like airliner crash trivia. Do you know about this one?
02/09/1982 Japan Air Lines
DC-8-61 Tokyo, Japan The aircraft flew into shallow water after a struggle with a mentally ill pilot. During the approach, the captain, known to have mental problems, put the inboard engines into reverse in an attempt to destroy the aircraft while the co-pilot and flight engineer battled to restrain him. Twenty-four of 174 aboard were killed.

MB

 

[michael707767]

Honestly, I have to agree w/ the pilots that they fear they will sign another heavily concessionary contract only to have their pension plans terminated which will not be reflected in their contract.

That in a nutshell is the biggest issue right now with the Delta pilots. We have watched what happened at USAir and UAL, where the pilots took huge cuts in an effort to save the pension, cuts they would not have taken had they known the pension was going away.

 

[MMB]

> And I’m sure self preservation played no part in this.
> If 232 had otherwise been empty, the pilot would have
> ridden the plane in for a fiery crash hollering Woo-Hoo!


Sorry. It is sometimes difficult to tell in print but, sarcasm intended here. to Al Haynes and his crew.

For anyone who remembers the crash, but doesn't know the fololow up, The crash was just a small blip for Mr. Haynes. See here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1398756/posts


MB

 

[767jetz]

I do have a smattering of experience in a few areas of aviation, but I am not an expert.

No kidding. No need to point out the obvious. Sometimes a little knowledge is the most dangerous. There are obvioulsy large gaps in your aeronautical knowledge, particularly with respect to flying airplanes.

Look MMB, All the examples you point out relate to mechanical failures. I have the utmost respect for the mechanics who maintain our fleets. Particularly the UA mechanics. (a bit biased I guess since my father-in-law is a retired UA mechanic.) As far as responsibility for lives I put them very high on the food chain. Which is also why they are generally the second highest paid labor on the property. And I never claimed that pilots are mechanics and could do their jobs. I do know that any aviation degree consists of quite a few credit hours of recip and turbine theory, performance, meteorology, etc. Show me one mechanic who’s required to learn a darn thing about cloud formation. Show me one fueler who’s required to know how that fuel gets from the tank to the tailpipe. It is the pilots who must deal with situations as they come up, and often use their resourcefulness and skills to attain a safe outcome. Sure a mechanic could screw up and cause an accident, but when that engine falls off, or what have you, it now becomes the pilot’s job to save everyone’s a$$. And as a pilot I can tell you first hand that the lives in our care are no small part of our concern in the day to day operation. Has very little to do with self preservation. More like professionalism. We can argue this until the cows come home, but unless you are in our shoes, you are in no position to speak with authority on the matter.

Bottom line is that with greater education/skill/experience/responsibility comes greater financial reward, as it should be. Which was my original premise in this thread anyway. I never dismissed anyone else’s contribution to the task of moving jets from A to B. But the idea that a fueler could bring a jet down by not doing his job is a stretch. The brakes are not even released until I’ve verified the proper fuel load is on board. Same with the flight plan, the ATC clearance, and most everything else you mentioned. And by the way it’s impossible for glycol to be pumped into the tanks; if anything but jet fuel was in there you wouldn’t get to the end of the runway without other indications; if the controls are cross rigged I’ll find it during the control check; And loadplanning is now done electronically with bar code scanner and computers (very little room for human error).

Now... how about back to the topic.

Peace,
767jetz

 

[insp89]

That could just mean the fuel curve was 2 weeks old. 100M in fuel is pretty small variance these days. I don't think they were 'caught' with anything.

I bet that if you 'stand against the man', you will see the company fold. good luck. It sure didn't work out for the NWA mechanics, as far as I can tell . . . they are fully replaced. Instead of replacement, fold.

fanatic, Can't see how you can compare Delta's current situation with Northwest.
Northwest planned and wanted their mechanics to strike..
Northhwest management hired SCABS well in advance and offered such a pathetic proposal to the mechanics, Knowing full well there was no way they would accept it.
The situation at Delta is totally different, The ball is in the pilot's court..They have the ability to shut the whole mess down....Who knows, might be what Delta management wants.

 

[Ch. 12]

fanatic, Can't see how you can compare Delta's current situation with Northwest.
Northwest planned and wanted their mechanics to strike..
Northhwest management hired SCABS well in advance and offered such a pathetic proposal to the mechanics, Knowing full well there was no way they would accept it.
The situation at Delta is totally different, The ball is in the pilot's court..They have the ability to shut the whole mess down....Who knows, might be what Delta management wants.

Much easier to get replacement mechanics than replacement pilots b/c the mechanics' field is much broader.

And I truly don't think that management wants the airline shut down. They are dealing with an economic situation that faces the entire industry. Asking the pilots for cuts in the wake of all other employees taking cuts is not an attempt to pocket extra profit (DL has a LONG way to go to even attain a profit), but is rather an attempt at survival.

 

[insp89]

Much easier to get replacement mechanics than replacement pilots b/c the mechanics' field is much broader.

And I truly don't think that management wants the airline shut down. They are dealing with an economic situation that faces the entire industry. Asking the pilots for cuts in the wake of all other employees taking cuts is not an attempt to pocket extra profit (DL has a LONG way to go to even attain a profit), but is rather an attempt at survival.

12, It may be easier to replace mechanics than pilots, but it can be done..The "Frankrupcy" brothers, [Frank Lorenzo and Frank Lorenzo], did it back in the 80's.

For whatever reason, Delta's management did not take the same path as Northwest management. I would think that with all the pilots that are now laid off, Delta could of replaced the pilots.

Evidently, Delta management did not want to waste the millions of dollars to train pilot scabs.

 

[Ch. 12]

12, It may be easier to replace mechanics than pilots, but it can be done..The "Frankrupcy" brothers, [Frank Lorenzo and Frank Lorenzo], did it back in the 80's.

For whatever reason, Delta's management did not take the same path as Northwest management. I would think that with all the pilots that are now laid off, Delta could of replaced the pilots.

Evidently, Delta management did not want to waste the millions of dollars to train pilot scabs.

I think it's safe to say that the only image that Grinstein would like to take on less than Leo's is Lorenzo's. Add Bob Ferguson to the list and you have the Black Sox of the airlines. Grinstein would be pretty stupid to stoop to the level of those that will never see an airline CEO spot again.

 

[insp89]

I think it's safe to say that the only image that Grinstein would like to take on less than Leo's is Lorenzo's. Add Bob Ferguson to the list and you have the Black Sox of the airlines. Grinstein would be pretty stupid to stoop to the level of those that will never see an airline CEO spot again.

Ch.12, Agreed,

Looks to me that Northwest management is following the Frankrupcy legacy..

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch.12, Agreed,

Looks to me that Northwest management is following the Frankrupcy legacy..

Yes...they are definitely there. I still have hope for Grinstein and hope he doesn't make the same mis-steps as NW.

 

[Busdrvr]

12, It may be easier to replace mechanics than pilots, but it can be done..The "Frankrupcy" brothers, [Frank Lorenzo and Frank Lorenzo], did it back in the 80's.

For whatever reason, Delta's management did not take the same path as Northwest management. I would think that with all the pilots that are now laid off, Delta could of replaced the pilots.

Evidently, Delta management did not want to waste the millions of dollars to train pilot scabs.

ISP, luckily I read you previous post and now understand the context of your post. Otherwise, I would have flamed you.... .

Dal could NOT replace the pilots, pure and simple. There simply is NOT a pool of qualified 757/767, 777, or MD-80 pilots. The rates DAL is trying to impose on the pilot group simply would not be worth it for the few scab wannabe's that are out there. Besides, Jblu has hired em all.

Things were diff during the Lorenzo days. There were a ton of airlines bouncing in and out of business and the unemployment lines had it's share of 727 pilot's. Additionally, pay rates were still at a respectable level compared to todays offers, and management had a war chest of cash to "weather the storm". Wouldn't happen, and DAL would be wasting it's time to try. It simply would not be a credible threat.

 

[Paul]

Delta Pilots Union Leadership Authorizes Strike Ballot

New York, NY - On the eve of what may be the season’s first snowstorm, the Delta pilot union’s Master Executive Council convened to discuss the progress of hearings on Delta’s 1113© motion to reject the pilot contract.

The pilot leadership insists that if the contract is rejected or management starts imposing terms, the pilots have the right engage in self help up to and including a strike. Chairman Captain Lee Moak stated “The Delta pilot contract has served both parties well for six decades. We will not willingly work without a contract.â€￾

ALPA News

I'm not trying to spread bad news, just spreading the news.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The US Secretary of Commerce also said the White House is closely monitoring the Delta situation and will consider action if it is appropriate. Given that few would deny that a strike would almost certainly result in Delta's liquidation, it is highly unlikely that the government would allow it. Remember also that DL is the largest carrier to tourism dependent Florida where Pres. Bush's brother is governor.