Equipment changes BOS-ATL

[737823]

Passengers certainly do expect a clean/safe aircraft, and I think that the DC-9 actually still delivers that. No, there's no AVOD, but the interiors are up-to-date, and the planes themselves are well maintained mechanically.

I rarely fly, but prefer the A319/320 as well. As far as working them, I *definitely* prefer the 'bus- it's arguably the most "ramp-friendly" plane out there. JMHO.

I think they're pursuing the 717-and MD90's- for the simple reason that they can acquire outright a relatively new A/C that meets network needs much cheaper than leasing-or buying- other types (737-900 order notwithstanding). They've stated publicly that the long range goal is to own an A/C for 20-30 years, as opposed to leasing. in the rumored 717 case, it's a good fit for many ex-LGA routes, and some shorter haul out of MSP & DTW. I'm sure there's other places it'd work as well .

Its amazing you feel the DC-9 is a safe and clean aircraft for DL to operate. Many of the DC-9s are older than me and other passengers! You're sounding like Bob Owens complaining about AA ordering new 737-800s to replace MD-80s when that money could be used for wages and benefits, and the older maintenance heavy MD-80s provide more job security. Mind you that the 738s provide AA fuel savings and each delivery is a net cash positive even in the words of Tom Horton. Why is the A320 family better on the ramp than the 737? Do the A320s have larger cargo holds?

If the 717s are so great, why didn't DL/NW order them in the late 1990s-early 2000s? Boeing didn't score many orders for them, many of the operators have come and gone. TWA had some that I flew years ago from JFK and quite liked it, Bangkok Airways had them for flights to Phuket and Koh Samui from BKK, AirTran has used them and now WN is uninterested, why is DL suddenly interested? Perhaps they can acquire them cheap but wouldn't it be better to standardize the fleet with modern, fuel efficient aircraft?

Josh

 

[737823]

Putting AVOD on an airplane intended for a 90-120 minute stage length is a huge waste of resources. Wifi is a far better investment, especially if you look at the streaming video servers that some airlines are considering with GoGo.

Many sub two hour flights on DL seem to operate with AVOD equipped 73H and 75X aircraft. They're quite nice and its great to have music, Live TV, wifi, and the moving map during the flight. Variety is welcomed.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Its amazing you feel the DC-9 is a safe and clean aircraft for DL to operate. Many of the DC-9s are older than me and other passengers!

What bizarro world have I landed in that a pro labor guy is extolling the virtues of being fiscally conservative, and a finance guy is not?

I feel they are safe/clean because they are safe and clean.

You're sounding like Bob Owens complaining about AA ordering new 737-800s to replace MD-80s when that money could be used for wages and benefits, and the older maintenance heavy MD-80s provide more job security.

Not sure where you're going here, but I get paid the same regardless of what A/C type rolls into the gate. Bob may be busier, but the work load is more or less static for me. As far as providing "job security," wage-wise, look at it from a more macro point of view; a company with an anchor of untenable debt around it's neck doesn't bode well for career expectations, regardless of job classification.

Mind you that the 738s provide AA fuel savings and each delivery is a net cash positive even in the words of Tom Horton. Why is the A320 family better on the ramp than the 737? Do the A320s have larger cargo holds?

I was comparing the A320 to the DC9. At any rate, IMO, it's better due to larger holds, easier to service, easier to deice, tracks better (for lack of a better term) when pushing/towing, can be loaded more efficiently if you're short on crew, and so on.

If the 717s are so great, why didn't DL/NW order them in the late 1990s-early 2000s? Boeing didn't score many orders for them, many of the operators have come and gone. TWA had some that I flew years ago from JFK and quite liked it, Bangkok Airways had them for flights to Phuket and Koh Samui from BKK, AirTran has used them and now WN is uninterested, why is DL suddenly interested? Perhaps they can acquire them cheap but wouldn't it be better to standardize the fleet with modern, fuel efficient aircraft?

Well, I'm not the one championing a possible 717 acquisition, but my guess is that they feel it's the right capacity & range for the segments they want to fly. Another poster mentioned optimizing the network as well.

Why didn't NW buy them? I suppose it's because we didn't really need them, given our network. Remember, we had 100 seat planes that had just been redone from nose to tail; why add another fleet type (and cost) that would essentially be the same as the DC9-30? I get your point about fuel efficiency, but if you have a plane that is owned outright, the d.o.c.'s may still come out lower than a newer type, even factoring in increased burn.

As for WN, I'd bet that they simply want to adhere to their single fleet type business model...

 

[737823]

What bizarro world have I landed in that a pro labor guy is extolling the virtues of being fiscally conservative, and a finance guy is not?

I feel they are safe/clean because they are safe and clean.

I guess there's a first time for everything. I understand DL is pursuing a different fleet strategy than other domestic carriers and seeks to contain capital costs related to the fleet. As an outsider looking in, it appears that in 4 years or so, competitors will have modern, fuel efficient fleets largely made up of 738s, A320s, and 787s will be begin coming online while DL will be stuck with MD-88/90 and refurbished 763s, and aging 777s that are more expensive to operate than newer aircraft. Just my two cents.

Not sure where you're going here, but I get paid the same regardless of what A/C type rolls into the gate. Bob may be busier, but the work load is more or less static for me. As far as providing "job security," wage-wise, look at it from a more macro point of view; a company with an anchor of untenable debt around it's neck doesn't bode well for career expectations, regardless of job classification.

Bob criticizes AA management for having money for new aircraft but not wages and benefits. He'd rather the MD-80s stick around and "have newer cars in the parking lot" than newer aircraft on the tarmac.

I was comparing the A320 to the DC9. At any rate, IMO, it's better due to larger holds, easier to service, easier to deice, tracks better (for lack of a better term) when pushing/towing, can be loaded more efficiently if you're short on crew, and so on.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.



Well, I'm not the one championing a possible 717 acquisition, but my guess is that they feel it's the right capacity & range for the segments they want to fly. Another poster mentioned optimizing the network as well.

Why didn't NW buy them? I suppose it's because we didn't really need them, given our network. Remember, we had 100 seat planes that had just been redone from nose to tail; why add another fleet type (and cost) that would essentially be the same as the DC9-30? I get your point about fuel efficiency, but if you have a plane that is owned outright, the d.o.c.'s may still come out lower than a newer type, even factoring in increased burn.

As for WN, I'd bet that they simply want to adhere to their single fleet type business model...

Possibly because the DC-9s are an antique/vintage aircraft? Isn't the 717 essentially the MD-95, which is the DC-9-95, like the MD-80 is the DC-9-80? Its difficult to find DC-9 routes, I used to fly them LGA-DTW, but it seems much of that is now A320/MD-88 service. Looks like there is one DC-9 operating from BOS today. What other routes do they operate? Have much the DC-9 capacity that has left switched to RJs?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I guess there's a first time for everything. I understand DL is pursuing a different fleet strategy than other domestic carriers and seeks to contain capital costs related to the fleet. As an outsider looking in, it appears that in 4 years or so, competitors will have modern, fuel efficient fleets largely made up of 738s, A320s, and 787s will be begin coming online while DL will be stuck with MD-88/90 and refurbished 763s, and aging 777s that are more expensive to operate than newer aircraft. Just my two cents.

Maybe, but we'll also have a large # of A320's, and 738's & 739's.

Bob criticizes AA management for having money for new aircraft but not wages and benefits. He'd rather the MD-80s stick around and "have newer cars in the parking lot" than newer aircraft on the tarmac.

I know. I suppose I'm just coming at it from a different angle.

Possibly because the DC-9s are an antique/vintage aircraft? Isn't the 717 essentially the MD-95, which is the DC-9-95, like the MD-80 is the DC-9-80? Its difficult to find DC-9 routes, I used to fly them LGA-DTW, but it seems much of that is now A320/MD-88 service. Looks like there is one DC-9 operating from BOS today. What other routes do they operate? Have much the DC-9 capacity that has left switched to RJs?

There's still quite a few cities that see them, though many are just 1x weekly, or one-off segments. There's a lot of ex-ATL DC9 flying to places like HSV, MOB, and SAV. In addition, off the top of my head, other cities that see 'em (not necessarily ex-ATL) are: CHS, CAE, GSO, GSP, LIT, MLB, MOB, MSN, ORD, TLH... I'm sure there are others.

Not sure specifically how much capacity has shifted to RJ's, but my anecdotal answer is "a lot."

 

[WorldTraveler]

There's still quite a few cities that see them, though many are just 1x weekly, or one-off segments. There's a lot of ex-ATL DC9 flying to places like HSV, MOB, and SAV. In addition, off the top of my head, other cities that see 'em (not necessarily ex-ATL) are: CHS, CAE, GSO, GSP, LIT, MLB, MOB, MSN, ORD, TLH... I'm sure there are others.

Not sure specifically how much capacity has shifted to RJ's, but my anecdotal answer is "a lot."

Interestingly, many of those same cities were opened with DC9s that were near the end of their life with DL in the latter years of EA's existence or shortly after they failed.
Those are all strong candidates for transitioning from D95s to 717s.

If DL mgmt succeeds at parking about 100 50 seaters over the next year or two and replace those with 717s, that would account for about half of the potential uses for 717s.

Given that there are still alot of cities served by 7-10 50 seat RJ flights per day, it isn't hard to see a transition to 5-7 70 seaters, with a similar ratio being used for 70-76 seat flights going to 717s. Fewer flights, bigger equipment, more mainline.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Interestingly, many of those same cities were opened with DC9s that were near the end of their life with DL in the latter years of EA's existence or shortly after they failed.
Those are all strong candidates for transitioning from D95s to 717s.

If DL mgmt succeeds at parking about 100 50 seaters over the next year or two and replace those with 717s, that would account for about half of the potential uses for 717s.

Given that there are still alot of cities served by 7-10 50 seat RJ flights per day, it isn't hard to see a transition to 5-7 70 seaters, with a similar ratio being used for 70-76 seat flights going to 717s. Fewer flights, bigger equipment, more mainline.

Well, let Delta have fun with the BR715 engines!

 

[WorldTraveler]

Well, let Delta have fun with the BR715 engines!

obviously a consideration... and that includes calculating the cost of maintaining those engines - for which there is a pretty known cost and DL has very good engine maintenance capabilities. It still comes down to that DL could take virtually the entire fleet and WN would be free of them or WN would likely write them off and sit them down.
WN and DL are both tough negotiators but I am betting they will come to a deal which is beneficial to both of them. If Boeing is also involved in the discussions (as rumored), then it makes it likely DL and WN are trying to shift as much of the burden as possible to Boeing.
Rumors are that part of the process involves a request by WN to do engine mods before DL will accept them.

I still expect that DL will take them from WN and in the process DL's long history w/ McD-D will continue for another 15-20 years.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I still expect that DL will take them from WN and in the process DL's long history w/ McD-D will continue for another 15-20 years.

MD ceased to exist in 1997. The first Boeing 717 was delivered in 1999. I know it was going to be the MD-95, but that never happened.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

obviously a consideration... and that includes calculating the cost of maintaining those engines - for which there is a pretty known cost and DL has very good engine maintenance capabilities. It still comes down to that DL could take virtually the entire fleet and WN would be free of them or WN would likely write them off and sit them down.
WN and DL are both tough negotiators but I am betting they will come to a deal which is beneficial to both of them. If Boeing is also involved in the discussions (as rumored), then it makes it likely DL and WN are trying to shift as much of the burden as possible to Boeing.
Rumors are that part of the process involves a request by WN to do engine mods before DL will accept them.

I still expect that DL will take them from WN and in the process DL's long history w/ McD-D will continue for another 15-20 years.

Rumors are what they are, Rumors. Ever since FL bought the 717s as a launch Customer, the BR-715s have been a PITA! Most of the time, they work well but when they hiccup, they do in a not so friendly way. I am sure Delta has a most splendid Engine shop to finally figure out what Rolls Royce/Boeing/Honeywell etc have not figured out since 1999 or earlier. It is interesting to note that Boeing/Rolls Royce/Honeywell did not inquire to Delta as to what the problems may be. Gee, maybe that would have been the solution all along? Yes, Delta can take on the entire Fleet but I doubt, all at once. No doubt, this is all landing in Boeing's lap!
Rumors are that part of the process involves a request by WN to do engine mods before DL will accept them.an necessary? Why would WN request to do any more work? I think you have that backwards, Delta should be requesting the Mods! Besides, FL Engineering has complied with all Mod updates so far! Next question?
QA4

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Rumors are what they are, Rumors. Ever since FL bought the 717s as a launch Customer, the BR-715s have been a PITA! Most of the time, they work well but when they hiccup, they do in a not so friendly way. I am sure Delta has a most splendid Engine shop to finally figure out what Rolls Royce/Boeing/Honeywell etc have not figured out since 1999 or earlier. It is interesting to note that Boeing/Rolls Royce/Honeywell did not inquire to Delta as to what the problems may be. Gee, maybe that would have been the solution all along? Yes, Delta can take on the entire Fleet but I doubt, all at once. No doubt, this is all landing in Boeing's lap!
Rumors are that part of the process involves a request by WN to do engine mods before DL will accept them.an necessary? Why would WN request to do any more work? I think you have that backwards, Delta should be requesting the Mods! Besides, FL Engineering has complied with all Mod updates so far! Next question?
QA4

I am sure that WN just wants to drop a few million on mods to deliver a superior product to DL do they can use them against them in the ATL market...

 

[QA4Jet-A]

I am sure that WN just wants to drop a few million on mods to deliver a superior product to DL do they can use them against them in the ATL market...

You may be sure but are you correct in your thinking?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Obviously, the sarcasm did not register. Maybe my choice of sentence structure was incorrect?

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Obviously, the sarcasm did not register. Maybe my choice of sentence structure was incorrect?

I think you are on to something! Sarcasm is ignored on my end and I won't get into 'Sentence Structure'. That's for the smart people

 

[AvTech04]

VP of MX for SWA, Jim Sokol, verbally stated that DL and SWA are in works on a 'trade' of sorts and yes, boeing is involved. DL has until the end of May to decide whether to go ahead with the deal or not. I don't have details on how many A/C's are begin traded to and from DL/SWA, but I do know that it will be a 4 year time frame to rotate the DL 730-700's into SWA and the AT 717's into DL. The SWA goal is to keep fleet level median equal year over year, so if DL accepts this deal, the older -300/-500's will stay longer while the 737MAX, -800's, AT -700's and DL -700's are implemented (obviously not in that order) and the 717's are delivered to DL.

*Rumor* 86 717's for 12 DL-700's. That's speculation and I have not seen it on official documentation.