Embraer 170- looks good!

[LavMan]

Chip, read the clause from our contract it reads the same as yours, also Mid-Atlantic is not mainline as pilots, F/As, mechanics and agents will not be paid mainline rates.


Scope and Job Security.
The Scope and Job Security provision in the 2002 Restructuring Agreement is eliminated and replaced as follows:

• The Company will maintain a minimum fleet size of 279 Total Mainline* Aircraft (inclusive of maintenance and spares), subject to a force majeure clause that includes acts of terrorism.
*Mainline excludes MDA RJ aircraft

• • •


Mid Atlantic Airways (MDA).
The MDA Letter in 2002 Restructuring Agreement will be supplemented with the following language:
The parties agree that in bargaining a first agreement for MDA, the terms and conditions of employment will be cost competitive with other Regional Express Carriers.
Where the Company, at its sole discretion, elects to utilize mainline mechanical and related personnel to perform MDA work, such employees will operate under the terms of the existing CBA except that the Company may elect to provide necessary MDA training to employees assigned by the Company to perform such work in their location, classification and on their shift. Such trained employees will be subject to a 9 month stability period as described in Article 17, J of the Basic Agreement.

 

[wmjb2002]

Light Years, Airline Orphan, or PITBULL, or anyone in the know...

Understanding your sentiments and comments first hand about possibly getting back to work with MAA (Mid-Atlantic). I would say YES to almost anything they offer, sad but true, I loved working at US Airways and wait and wait and wait, and hope and hope and hope. And I am hoping I could make enough to pay bills on the wage they offer. This is not a fun place to be. and all of us have difficult decisions to make. More questions for speculation/conversation...

1) Wouldn't it be nice if there were a general letter of information to all of us waiting on furlough, and/or working mainline in regards to when, where and how MAA might work? When recalls might possibly start? It is August 7! I thought MAA was to start sometime Nov03-Jan04. They must have some idea by now.
2) If we ever did get to the point of recalls, would you start at Mid-Atlantic on year one?? I thought you maintained your seniority on furlough so no one would be year one; hence more like $17 an hour??? Or is our seniority only held when we got back to US mainline, if ever.
Your thoughts?

 

[ACrazy8]

I think the 170 looks great on paper. I hope this aircraft lives up to it's expections and provides the company with it's targeted results. I am having reservations about AFA and the amount of time it's taking them to provide their members with a Q&A about MMA. I understand VF extensions are due by SEP 1. I would imagine at that time, we would find out how many fa's would need to be off the property come DEC 1. And let's not forget the upcoming VSIP and VF8. My "beef" is with the fact that many of us are living with many questions and very few answers. Does anyone know what the company is planning on doing? How are they going to handle this situation? Are they going to go ahead and start training already furloughed fa's, who wish to work for MMA. Then come DEC. we will have a new group of fa's let go from mainline. Will the company turn to the newly "hired" MMA fa's and say, "sorry your senority no longer affords you a position at MMA." We'll send you certified mail when we reach your senority. Thank you for helping us launch the EMB 170. I guess the "not knowing" is killing me. Can anyone cast some light? Pitbull? Chip? Thanks...

 

[Light Years]

Yes, the company has been very vague. I do know that a bunch of Inflight people from MDA are heading down to Brazil, I think this week, to learn the plane.
I think my intiial comments were a bit misunderstood- I'm excited about the opportunity to work on that plane and with the wonderful people who were furloughed with me- I by no means meant anything insulting to anyone. I was just trying to make it a positive post for once...

But since we have brought up pay issues, as far as I know, you go in at your year of seniority. If you are in your fourth year at US, you go in at 4 year pay at MDA. Sound good? Nope- its about 17 an hour. A Shuttle America (one of our worst contract carriers) F/A STARTS at $18 and still brings in less than $1000 on guarantee. As PITbull noted, American Eagle's contract is notoriously bad. In some ways, our peers at the wholly-owneds have better contacts to fly Dash 8s than we will to fly what most companies (JetBlue) would consider a mainline plane. MidAtlantics employees and equiptment are unique situations, its really too bad we werent able to negotiate a contract rather than let mgmt tear the cover off the worst contract they could find.

 

[airlineorphan]

----------------
On 8/7/2003 655 AM wmjb2002 wrote:

Light Years, Airline Orphan, or PITBULL, or anyone in the know...

Understanding your sentiments and comments first hand about possibly getting back to work with MAA (Mid-Atlantic). I would say YES to almost anything they offer, sad but true, I loved working at US Airways and wait and wait and wait, and hope and hope and hope. And I am hoping I could make enough to pay bills on the wage they offer. This is not a fun place to be. and all of us have difficult decisions to make. More questions for speculation/conversation...

1) Wouldn't it be nice if there were a general letter of information to all of us waiting on furlough, and/or working mainline in regards to when, where and how MAA might work? When recalls might possibly start? It is August 7! I thought MAA was to start sometime Nov03-Jan04. They must have some idea by now.
2) If we ever did get to the point of recalls, would you start at Mid-Atlantic on year one?? I thought you maintained your seniority on furlough so no one would be year one; hence more like $17 an hour??? Or is our seniority only held when we got back to US mainline, if ever.
Your thoughts?

----------------​

Hi wmjb2002,
I think PITbull may be able to give a more definitive answer, but as I recall, our pay step at MAA will be based upon our years of active service at US Airways mainline. Thus, if you were furloughed Nov. 1st, 2001, as I was, you would come in at MAA at 1 year seniority pay, not 1 year + however long you've been on furlough.
We do continue to accrue seniority for bidding purposes, but not for payscale purposes.
****UNLESS you were on VF1.... (PITbull, please correct me if I'm wrong on this), in which your time on VF1 is counted towards pay and pension seniority as well. Of course if you get converted to involuntary furlough whilst on voluntary furlough, this clock would stop at your invol. furlough date. ****
This last bit applies only to VF1 though. All the ones that came after were just management going through the motions to pretend they were bargaining in good faith.
Good luck on making the decision. As far as I can tell, I would probably have to take a second job if I came back to MAA. $13/hr, assuming an 85 hr month means about $800/month take home pay. Rent would likely eat 1/2 of that. Health insurance would take another good sized chunk. (For those with more seniority, $16/hr would translate into about $950/mo. take home pay.)
The thing that really gets me about these RJ pay scales is that you actually do more work as a f/a on an rj than on a mainline a/c. Catering, cleaning, etc... And then you do all of the same duties as a mainline f/a, and yet you get paid 2/3rds the mainline rates. And as long as that is the case, management will have an incentive to cannibalize mainline routes beyond the point where it might make sense from a market demand perspective.
I hope this has helped a little.
In solidarity,
-Airlineorphan

P.S. Can a pilot comment upon how these EMB-170's are likely to do in turbulence and weather compared to the bigger birds? I'm guessing we'll have a lot more weather related cancellations and more turbulence related injuries on these little planes.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

----------------
On 8/7/2003 6:56:48 AM LavMan wrote:


Chip, read the clause from our contract it reads the same as yours, also Mid-Atlantic is not mainline as pilots, F/As, mechanics and agents will not be paid mainline rates.
 

Scope and Job Security.
The Scope and Job Security provision in the 2002 Restructuring Agreement is eliminated and replaced as follows:

• The Company will maintain a minimum fleet size of 279 Total Mainline* Aircraft (inclusive of maintenance and spares), subject to a force majeure clause that includes acts of terrorism.
*Mainline excludes MDA RJ aircraft

• • •


Mid Atlantic Airways (MDA).
The MDA Letter in 2002 Restructuring Agreement will be supplemented with the following language:
The parties agree that in bargaining a first agreement for MDA, the terms and conditions of employment will be cost competitive with other Regional Express Carriers.
Where the Company, at its sole discretion, elects to utilize mainline mechanical and related personnel to perform MDA work, such employees will operate under the terms of the existing CBA except that the Company may elect to provide necessary MDA training to employees assigned by the Company to perform such work in their location, classification and on their shift. Such trained employees will be subject to a 9 month stability period as described in Article 17, J of the Basic Agreement.

 

----------------​

Lavman,
You and Chip are saying the same thing. I know folks like to disagree with Chip, but at least have a different arguement.

 

[4lowed]

Unfortunately, those inflight folks went to Brazil to train on an airplane that has not received FAA certification. The cabin mock ups they are training on do not match what Airways will use. The doors they are training on are not necessarily the ones Airways will install. Sounds like a big waste of money to go party in Brazil for no reason.

4lowed

 

[USA320Pilot]

Lavman:

Read my post closely. I said mainline type aircraft and underlined the word type. For example, the picture in US Airways' Update Newsletter shows a computer generated photo of the aircraft without Express written on the fuselage...just US Airways. Even though these aircraft are operated outside of US Airways' mainline CBA's, these aircraft will be part of US Airways in a separate division.

My point is, from a customer experience, these aircraft will be owned and operated by US Airways Group, they will have the feel and look of mainline type jets, and all of profits will be kept by US Airways Group.

For example, this mainline type aircraft has a spacious 6-foot, 7-inch cabin height, large overhead bins, two-by-two seating with seats wider than the B-737, and a First Class Cabin.

Regardless, I never said MAA was part of the mainline...read my post closely.

Best regards,

Chip

 

[airlineorphan]

Chip, or any other pilot on here,

Can you shed any light on my query (copied below) about the RJ's and turbulence/weather?


"P.S. Can a pilot comment upon how these EMB-170's are likely to do in turbulence and weather compared to the bigger birds? I'm guessing we'll have a lot more weather related cancellations and more turbulence related injuries on these little planes."

Thanks,
Airlineorphan

 

[PITbull]

wnbj2002 and Orpan,

I can shed some light on just what I know...during the summer negotiations, which I was a part of, Mid Atlantic furloughed f/as would NOT be able to take their "years of service" and apply it to Mid-Atlantic. At that time, Mid Atlantic was in the "thought stages" and was going to be considered a Wholly owned subsidiary of U (completely separate from mainline). Infact, there was no contract thought of or negotitiations. We were not even sure they themselves would have to organize or get AFA as a union automatically. Towards the end of the SUMMER negotiations, it was told to us by AFA International that any f/as that were sent to Mid Atlantic from furlough would be considered AFA, but would have to negotiate thier own contracts and hold elections for Officers and MEC. They also said that once a f/a from mainline took a job at Mid-Atlantic, their years of service on MAA could not be brought back to mainline. What they left mainline with, is what they would come back with. Now that was in stone.

In the Winter, the discussions changed and again ncluded MAA. Because of the Pilot negotiations that was ratified before any other labor group, MAA would now be considered a division of "mainline", NOT a subsidiary as what was previously ratified.

Since MAA is NOW considered a "division" of mainline, then it would stand to reason that your "years of service" at mainline, should be slotted in to MAA. And that your "years of service on MAA would now be brought forward in addition, if you come subsequently back to mainline.

That would be my take. This was brought up to management, but they will not confirm it as their belief. We will argue this when the time arises.

Again, the MEC considers what we ratified and that is that MAA is OUR flight attendants, our people, and part of our contract.

 

[airlineorphan]

Hi PITbull,
I went back and looked at old AFA E-Lines and found the follwoing passage in the August 2, 2002 E-Line.

"We have an agreement with management that we will have a "me-too" with the ALPA MidAtlantic Sideletter, including full longevity credit for pay and benefit purposes for any furloughed mainline flight attendant that takes a position with MidAtlantic. The agreement also calls for a new AFA contract to be negotiated when MidAtlantic starts-up, which will cover all MidAtlantic flight attendants."



[url="http://www.afausairways.org/Eline/aug2.htm"]http://www.afausairways.org/Eline/aug2.htm[/URL]
​

My interpretation of this passage is that the company agreed to mainline pay seniority when determining where f/a's are in the MAA payscale.
Can you comment and clarify?
In solidarity,
-Airlineorphan

 

[JMike]

Chip wrote:

>>MAA will consist of 23% of the total mainline type airframes by the fall of 2006, the division will have a competitive cost structure, and a break even load factor of about 50%, according to Bruce Ashby, senior vice president of corporate planning and express. By comparison, JetBlue chief executive officer David Neeleman said their new EMB-190 aircraft will have a break even load factor of 60%.

 

[Twicebaked]

----------------
On 8/7/2003 655 AM wmjb2002 wrote:

Light Years, Airline Orphan, or PITBULL, or anyone in the know...

Understanding your sentiments and comments first hand about possibly getting back to work with MAA (Mid-Atlantic). I would say YES to almost anything they offer, sad but true, I loved working at US Airways and wait and wait and wait, and hope and hope and hope. And I am hoping I could make enough to pay bills on the wage they offer. This is not a fun place to be. and all of us have difficult decisions to make. More questions for speculation/conversation...

1) Wouldn't it be nice if there were a general letter of information to all of us waiting on furlough, and/or working mainline in regards to when, where and how MAA might work? When recalls might possibly start? It is August 7! I thought MAA was to start sometime Nov03-Jan04. They must have some idea by now.
2) If we ever did get to the point of recalls, would you start at Mid-Atlantic on year one?? I thought you maintained your seniority on furlough so no one would be year one; hence more like $17 an hour??? Or is our seniority only held when we got back to US mainline, if ever.
Your thoughts?

--------
wmbj2002

It is my understanding that you will start at MDA or MAA (whatever you like) at the pay scale equivalent to your years on mainline. If you leave US at 5 years, you will start MDA at THEIR 5 year pay scale. That is what I was told by someone in the know over there. As far as when it will start. They(who ever "they" are) just got back from Brazil today certifiying the aircraft. The f/a instructors start at the end of this month. I would assume that once they are on the property things should start rolling really fast.

Does anyone know WHERE the routes are for MDA?

 

[wings396]

The one item that scares me about MDA is the fact that they may be spun-off as Express Jet was by CO in the future. We will build up MDA and at some point spin them off for a hefty profit. After this takes place the employees of MDA may not be able to break back into Mainline. I believe that this is now the case with Express Jet employees. From what I understand they had this option up until last April.

 

[airlineorphan]

----------------
On 8/11/2003 8:56:00 PM wings396 wrote:

The one item that scares me about MDA is the fact that they may be spun-off as Express Jet was by CO in the future. We will build up MDA and at some point spin them off for a hefty profit. After this takes place the employees of MDA may not be able to break back into Mainline. I believe that this is now the case with Express Jet employees. From what I understand they had this option up until last April.

----------------
​

I agree, they may try to play this game. However, we will still be on the mainline seniority list. Spinning off the sweatshop airline won't remove anyone from the mainline seniority list unless we resign our mainline seniority.
In solidarity,
Airlineorphan