The Fort Worth paper has always been a great mouth piece for AA managment. They have been accomodating to Bob Crandall, and now Mr Carty, to get the companys one sided information out. The FT. Worth paper doesnt concern its self with facts or accurate figures. Whats most important is printing AA's latest press release.
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- Thread starter JFK Fleet Service
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What a half baked article. The idea of putting more seats in to planes that are not going out full. How brilliant. The author of this article has no clue.
Our fleet, can it be simpified further? I just dont see how.
How about Untied filing BK or there employees cutting their pay. AA enjoys a huge advantage in pilot pay over Delta, and United.
There are still huge amounts of waste going on. We will and need to work through all that first.
Our fleet, can it be simpified further? I just dont see how.
How about Untied filing BK or there employees cutting their pay. AA enjoys a huge advantage in pilot pay over Delta, and United.
There are still huge amounts of waste going on. We will and need to work through all that first.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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JFK,
I hear you! (my 501 brother)
But plz. allow the ol' bear to make a few points here.
(I'm too lazy to quote some previous posters, on this topic, but some key points were made that need to be put into prospective.)
1. We, and the WHOLE INDUSTRY,(yes WN, you too) need to wait and see what ultimately happens with UAL(and too a lesser degree, US)
2. AA management MUST get, from APA(AT ALMOST ANY $$ COST), contract language that will allow AA to unleash, IMHO, probably AA's most deadly weapon, AMERICAN EAGLE.
Lets face it, we're 2 airlines in 1. So for the time being, until the economy turns around, lets utilize AE to it's fullest!
In a way, thats how we will shrink to profitability.
3. (Mikey's right) DO NOT put the seats back in.(MRTC)
4. Watch VERY closely to see how the BOS/LGA/DCA RJ shuttle works out. This is definitely a test case, that could have some surprising results.
Permit me to repeat myself on A/E. I'm no huge fan of A/E, but (like it or not) we(AMR) have a huge advantage over the competition, do to our route system, and the fact that A/E is DAM* near in the top ten in size of US airlines. Now having said that, I truly believe APA can be convinced to loosen up the A/E language. That means that it's TOTALLY UP TO AA MANAGEMENT. to get the job done. PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as concessions go, I think(in an absolute worst case scenario) that, work rule changes, less VC, and less medical(etc) will fly
I think that a reduction in established hourly pay rates WILL NOT.
Finally, it's up to each employee to figure out what is their bottom line.
Speaking only for myself, I'll retire, early(with a small monthly check), before I give up ONE CENT of my hourly rate.
But again, that's my bottom line !!!!!!!!
Like someone said earlier, there is life after the airline industry
I don't believe it will come to that ,because we're AA. And if we can't pull it off, NO ONE CAN.
Regards,
NH/BB's
AA/AFL-CIO
ps. JFK, your DEFINITELY right about OLD FART, I mean D O G -- F A R T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hear you! (my 501 brother)
But plz. allow the ol' bear to make a few points here.
(I'm too lazy to quote some previous posters, on this topic, but some key points were made that need to be put into prospective.)
1. We, and the WHOLE INDUSTRY,(yes WN, you too) need to wait and see what ultimately happens with UAL(and too a lesser degree, US)
2. AA management MUST get, from APA(AT ALMOST ANY $$ COST), contract language that will allow AA to unleash, IMHO, probably AA's most deadly weapon, AMERICAN EAGLE.
Lets face it, we're 2 airlines in 1. So for the time being, until the economy turns around, lets utilize AE to it's fullest!
In a way, thats how we will shrink to profitability.
3. (Mikey's right) DO NOT put the seats back in.(MRTC)
4. Watch VERY closely to see how the BOS/LGA/DCA RJ shuttle works out. This is definitely a test case, that could have some surprising results.
Permit me to repeat myself on A/E. I'm no huge fan of A/E, but (like it or not) we(AMR) have a huge advantage over the competition, do to our route system, and the fact that A/E is DAM* near in the top ten in size of US airlines. Now having said that, I truly believe APA can be convinced to loosen up the A/E language. That means that it's TOTALLY UP TO AA MANAGEMENT. to get the job done. PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as concessions go, I think(in an absolute worst case scenario) that, work rule changes, less VC, and less medical(etc) will fly
I think that a reduction in established hourly pay rates WILL NOT.
Finally, it's up to each employee to figure out what is their bottom line.
Speaking only for myself, I'll retire, early(with a small monthly check), before I give up ONE CENT of my hourly rate.
But again, that's my bottom line !!!!!!!!
Like someone said earlier, there is life after the airline industry
I don't believe it will come to that ,because we're AA. And if we can't pull it off, NO ONE CAN.
Regards,
NH/BB's
AA/AFL-CIO
ps. JFK, your DEFINITELY right about OLD FART, I mean D O G -- F A R T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get Over It Already
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We don't even have the old seats to put back in -- they were reportedly sold.
WingNoPrayer says that management put them into a near-bankruptcy position. What a load of crap, because regardless what the stock price is, AMR is nowhere near bankruptcy. If anything, AMR and DAL have the best balance sheets right now on a long term basis, and can weather the storm.
Sure, they're taking on water, but AMR is not the Titanic.
WingNoPrayer says that management put them into a near-bankruptcy position. What a load of crap, because regardless what the stock price is, AMR is nowhere near bankruptcy. If anything, AMR and DAL have the best balance sheets right now on a long term basis, and can weather the storm.
Sure, they're taking on water, but AMR is not the Titanic.
verhalen2003
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Most of the linked article is recycled information that is either a) old news already announced B) speculation that has already been discredited c) doesn't make any sense or ignores obvious facts about AA's situation.
I'm not saying there will not be more bad news on the horizon, but articles like that are not a good source of forward info.
I also tend to think that most newspaper articles about the airline industry are written by members of the population segment that doesn't care if all the airlines go dead except for WN. So they play up the bad vibes / rumors and don't bother to dig for facts or show both sides of the story.
I'm not saying there will not be more bad news on the horizon, but articles like that are not a good source of forward info.
I also tend to think that most newspaper articles about the airline industry are written by members of the population segment that doesn't care if all the airlines go dead except for WN. So they play up the bad vibes / rumors and don't bother to dig for facts or show both sides of the story.
Old (Dog)fart: So, you think a new terminal will get rid of the Babyblues? Well, that's the solution then, everyone go out and build yourselves a new terminal. You can always pass the costs in in the form of higher ticket prices--right?
NewHampshire Black Bears
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Get Over It Already,
VERY well put !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
VERY well put !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
Tango-Bravo
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/17/2002 12:54:48 PM DFWCC wrote:
The labor chart says AA pays $135 per 1000 seat miles and WN pays $88 per 1000 seat miles.
Do those figures count AA blouted salaries, perks, stock ops etc. for mgnt or are they just labor cost for people who really do the work?
The reporter should compare worker cost [pay & benies]. I beleive Wn and AA workers are about the same rate of pay.
So if top heavy mngt can look at employees per aircraft and than mngt per aircraft. At DFW we have something like 150 CSMs and @ 292 CCs for the ramp. I almost have my own CSM.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Wish I had saved the actual numbers that verify your point that management costs are grossly disproportionate when comparing Southwest with some of the cartel members. The difference is so vast as to be scandalous -- and the worst offenders just happen to be losing the most $$$.
The figures were given in a article titled Dumb and Dumber that appeared in Airways magazine (believe it was Oct. or Nov. 2001 edition).
Perhaps someone who has access to the article could post the numbers.
----------------
On 9/17/2002 12:54:48 PM DFWCC wrote:
The labor chart says AA pays $135 per 1000 seat miles and WN pays $88 per 1000 seat miles.
Do those figures count AA blouted salaries, perks, stock ops etc. for mgnt or are they just labor cost for people who really do the work?
The reporter should compare worker cost [pay & benies]. I beleive Wn and AA workers are about the same rate of pay.
So if top heavy mngt can look at employees per aircraft and than mngt per aircraft. At DFW we have something like 150 CSMs and @ 292 CCs for the ramp. I almost have my own CSM.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Wish I had saved the actual numbers that verify your point that management costs are grossly disproportionate when comparing Southwest with some of the cartel members. The difference is so vast as to be scandalous -- and the worst offenders just happen to be losing the most $$$.
The figures were given in a article titled Dumb and Dumber that appeared in Airways magazine (believe it was Oct. or Nov. 2001 edition).
Perhaps someone who has access to the article could post the numbers.
B
bagsmasher
Guest
If asked, I will vote no to any concessions. AA should learn to take care of their own employees, instead of screwing them with this TWA deal. Before they put TWAer's on the seniority list ahead of me, I had a different attitude. You don't screw me, then ask for concessions.
What should a CEO make? What is too much? How much is not enough? Don Carty makes over 100 times the pay of a typical AA employee.
Did he work 100 times harder than the typical AAer? Is he 100 times smarter? Is he 100 times more loyal? I think not. Yes, he will and should make more than me. Does he deserve 100 times more? No.
Just because Jack Welch and Michael Eisner have had big pay days. Should every CEO. Are they really worth it? Or have we been conditioned to believe they deserve it. Is it the American way? Have be been sold a load of crap? Should Executive pay be built on the backs and sweat of hourly workers across this county? The anwser to all these questions is the simple, its all the same. NO!
Look where the big pay days and corporate greed has gotten us. As they work and manipulate numbers and sales to add to their stock options. When the company colapses or when we begin the long road to the bottom. Its not the CEO or any top managers who suffer. They cashed out long before the crash. Its the low level manager and the hourly employee, who will take the hit. The cut in pay, retirement, health or even layoff.
Did he work 100 times harder than the typical AAer? Is he 100 times smarter? Is he 100 times more loyal? I think not. Yes, he will and should make more than me. Does he deserve 100 times more? No.
Just because Jack Welch and Michael Eisner have had big pay days. Should every CEO. Are they really worth it? Or have we been conditioned to believe they deserve it. Is it the American way? Have be been sold a load of crap? Should Executive pay be built on the backs and sweat of hourly workers across this county? The anwser to all these questions is the simple, its all the same. NO!
Look where the big pay days and corporate greed has gotten us. As they work and manipulate numbers and sales to add to their stock options. When the company colapses or when we begin the long road to the bottom. Its not the CEO or any top managers who suffer. They cashed out long before the crash. Its the low level manager and the hourly employee, who will take the hit. The cut in pay, retirement, health or even layoff.
Hmmm, Management is sooooo bad!
Go to Yahoo and look up Executive Compensation in the search window. Don Carty is number 250 at 3 mil a year. Airline CEO's are close to the bottom of the list in the big picture of CEO's.
That is because, in a good year, an airline only sees 6 to 8% profit on revenues. The credit card companies, like that Citibank card you got in your wallet makes 30% on revenues.
P.S. That is not to say that they are good or bad managers. But before you say they are overpaid ---check out the truth.
OK -- You are now free to kill me
Go to Yahoo and look up Executive Compensation in the search window. Don Carty is number 250 at 3 mil a year. Airline CEO's are close to the bottom of the list in the big picture of CEO's.
That is because, in a good year, an airline only sees 6 to 8% profit on revenues. The credit card companies, like that Citibank card you got in your wallet makes 30% on revenues.
P.S. That is not to say that they are good or bad managers. But before you say they are overpaid ---check out the truth.
OK -- You are now free to kill me
FA Mikey;
How much should a CEO make? According to one line of microeconomic theory the spread from top to bottom should be no greater than a factor of 20. In other words the guy in the corner office makes no more than 20 times what the guy cleaning the office makes. Skyrocketing CEO pay is a recent phenomenon; it’s the result of compliant boards. What has happened is that Boards are often made up of CEOs for other companies who have an interest in seeing CEO compensation go up. It’s a case of I’ll scratch your back and you scratch mine.
Look at it this way, lets say that instead of negotiations as we know it we put our proposals to a panel instead. Well if mechanics from AA put their contract proposals to a panel made up of mechanics (with at least some foresight) from UAL and NWA how much do you think we would be making? They would have no reason to deny even the most unreasonable requests because we would be sitting on the panel that determines their pay.
The system is corrupt. The problems that we face today are the result of that corruption. Those that have perpetrated the crimes are trying to convict and penalize us for their deeds.
How much should a CEO make? According to one line of microeconomic theory the spread from top to bottom should be no greater than a factor of 20. In other words the guy in the corner office makes no more than 20 times what the guy cleaning the office makes. Skyrocketing CEO pay is a recent phenomenon; it’s the result of compliant boards. What has happened is that Boards are often made up of CEOs for other companies who have an interest in seeing CEO compensation go up. It’s a case of I’ll scratch your back and you scratch mine.
Look at it this way, lets say that instead of negotiations as we know it we put our proposals to a panel instead. Well if mechanics from AA put their contract proposals to a panel made up of mechanics (with at least some foresight) from UAL and NWA how much do you think we would be making? They would have no reason to deny even the most unreasonable requests because we would be sitting on the panel that determines their pay.
The system is corrupt. The problems that we face today are the result of that corruption. Those that have perpetrated the crimes are trying to convict and penalize us for their deeds.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/22/2002 8:30:03 AM Bob Owens wrote:
How much should a CEO make?
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[/blockquote]
Whatever the market will bear.
MK
----------------
On 9/22/2002 8:30:03 AM Bob Owens wrote:
How much should a CEO make?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Whatever the market will bear.
MK
Flaptrack;
Ceo compensation is way out of whack. Forget about comparing CEO compensation to come up with a good guess of what it should be. Look at it this way, the CEO is an employee. Even Don Carty at $3million/year will make more in one year than any mechanic will in a lifetime. If all the other employees in a company are expected to accept a rate of pay that does not cause harm to the company then why does the CEO need that much? Why should every other employee be expected to give the best they can for a fair wage but those at the top need to get wildly excessive compensation in order to do a good job? Why should the workers deprive themselves In order to be competative while executives are going out and blowing $13000 on a shower curtian? Does such behavior set the example of mutual sacrifice for a shared corporate goal? Does it promote cooperation or is it a display of pure arrogance? With leaders who continue to line their pockets so excessively is it reasonable to expect employees at the lower end to give back what little they get to bail these guys out? A while ago the Flight attendants put out a list that showed where AA had pissed away $7Billion. That money could come in handy now. Now that these people got the industry into such a mess they want the employees to bail them out. I say NO WAY FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY!
Ceo compensation is way out of whack. Forget about comparing CEO compensation to come up with a good guess of what it should be. Look at it this way, the CEO is an employee. Even Don Carty at $3million/year will make more in one year than any mechanic will in a lifetime. If all the other employees in a company are expected to accept a rate of pay that does not cause harm to the company then why does the CEO need that much? Why should every other employee be expected to give the best they can for a fair wage but those at the top need to get wildly excessive compensation in order to do a good job? Why should the workers deprive themselves In order to be competative while executives are going out and blowing $13000 on a shower curtian? Does such behavior set the example of mutual sacrifice for a shared corporate goal? Does it promote cooperation or is it a display of pure arrogance? With leaders who continue to line their pockets so excessively is it reasonable to expect employees at the lower end to give back what little they get to bail these guys out? A while ago the Flight attendants put out a list that showed where AA had pissed away $7Billion. That money could come in handy now. Now that these people got the industry into such a mess they want the employees to bail them out. I say NO WAY FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY!
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/21/2002 11:51:32 PM FA Mikey wrote:
What should a CEO make? What is too much? How much is not enough? Don Carty makes over 100 times the pay of a typical AA employee.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Being that the average US CEO salary is over FIVE HUNDRED times greater than that of their average hourly employee, Don Carty's pay looks very reasonable. Right now I really don't think his pay is an issue. We've got much bigger problems to worry about!
----------------
On 9/21/2002 11:51:32 PM FA Mikey wrote:
What should a CEO make? What is too much? How much is not enough? Don Carty makes over 100 times the pay of a typical AA employee.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Being that the average US CEO salary is over FIVE HUNDRED times greater than that of their average hourly employee, Don Carty's pay looks very reasonable. Right now I really don't think his pay is an issue. We've got much bigger problems to worry about!
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