Early PHL-FRA for September

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

How do you define "far more service"?  Number of destinations or frequency?
If by frequency, LH probably wins.
 
I believe that In terms of destinations, LH from FRA and MUC is more-or-less comparable to what OS serves from VIE.
The only destinations that OS doesn't serve from VIE that LH does from FRA/MUC (including seasonal) are:  Gdansk, Katowice, Wroclaw, Rzeszow, Riga, Tallin, Vilnius, Cluj, Timosoara, Tblisi, Donetsk, Pula and Zadar.
However, LH doesn't serve Dnepropetrovsk, Iasi, Kharkiv, Kosice, Krasnodar, Podgorica, Pristina, Rostov, Skopje, Varna and Ohrid - which OS does from VIE.
 
My definition of eastern Europe included some former USSR republics such as Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Moldova, in addition to the former Warsaw pact countries plus former Yugoslavia republics.  I didn't include Turkey or Greece in my definition (which may be considered somewhat political rather than geographic) - but I would imagine LH and OS serve the same destinations in those countries (seasonal as well as regularly scheduled service).
 
Do you have any numbers as to how much passengers US pushed to eastern Europe via FRA/MUC? 
While service to 'niche' secondary cities in eastern European countries is nice complement to an airline's network, for many of the people from those countries it isn't a big deal to travel to their nation's capital city where in addition to LH  and * alliance, skyteam and 1-world have a presence.

 

[WorldTraveler]

seats to/from those hubs would be the factor that would indicate size in the Market.

yes, it is possible to pull that kind of data but what is the point?

OS is part of Star just as LH is so AA/US won't have access to those destinations via either OS or LH.

It isn't a surprise that alliance hubs that are further from eastern Europe are not as Strong in eastern Europe. the "geographic center" of Star alliance in Europe is the most easterly of oneworld, Skyteam, and Star.

again, AA/US gains some advantages including cutting off UA from the SE US where UA codeshared with US but the flip side is that there are losses to AA/US because UA has strengths that other carriers do not.

that is the individuality of each carrier.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

yes, it is possible to pull that kind of data but what is the point?

 

 
Numbers would be nice because I think you might be over-estimating how much traffic to/from eastern Europe US/AA will lose.
Like I said, although * alliance dominates eastern Europe, but the capitals of those countries are still sufficientnly served by skyteam and 1-world.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I will look at codeshare schedules and let you know.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Frugal,
currently AA/US has its code on an average of 23 flts/day to Eastern Europe with total capacity of 3700 seats.
DL..... 68..... 9500.
UA..... 76.....10,700.

for both US in the past and UA now, the largest number of seats were/are codeshared on LH.

DL's largest codeshare partner to E. Europe is SU but AF/KL combined have almost as many seats as SU does.

looking at flown data, US absolutely benefitted from the Star relationship by carrying passengers beyond US' network.
it is true that AA/US is a fraction of the size of DL and UA in actual traffic to Eastern Europe where DL and UA carry hundreds of passengers per day but it also highlights that oneworld carriers do not serve the region as well as Skyteam or Star.

Further, it highlights that E. Europe is a large region of the world where US carriers need alliance partners to either enhance their presence and that all 3 US megacarriers all serve most of the same western Europe cities so there is little advantage for one over the other.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Thank you for providing the numbers.
It's interesting that for DL their largest code-share partner for eastern Europe is SU.  Seems kind of strange - you'd have to back-track a bit on SU for eastern Europe destinations.  Also it's interesting how close UA and DL are in terms of the number of seats on codeshare partners - I always assumed that * alliance was much more ahead of skyteam and star.  But this topic would be more suitable for discussion on the DL forum.

 

[nycbusdriver]

 But this topic would be more suitable for discussion on the DL forum.

 
It really doesn't matter.  WT turns every forum into a DL forum anyway.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and it is also why providing actual numbers dispels the preconceived notions that many of us have.

I honestly thought that UA had higher codeshare revenues to Eastern Europe and was surprised to find out that it is actually DL.

I could dig more to find out if that is driven by SU - but I doubt it because DL only has one flight/day there. That means that AF/KL are carrying a far higher percentage of DL passengers to Eastern Europe than LH is for UA - which says that DL's codeshare efficiency is higher than UA's.

I'm not sure there is any need to continue the topic here or elsewhere. We have determined the rankings of where each of the big 3 are both WRT codeshare presence and actual revenue.
 

It really doesn't matter. WT turns every forum into a DL forum anyway.

uh, no

the question was about what US is going to do with all of the seats to FRA and MUC that it cannot codeshare on.

the discussion rightly moved toward finding an understanding of US carrier size in Eastern Europe.

like it or not, US lost a significant codeshare presence in Eastern Europe via LH and OS that cannot be replaced by oneworld.

obviously doing so was part of the calculus regarding the merger but it highlights that there were network losses involved in the merger. When your competitors carry the equivalent of several widebodies worth of passengers per day that you do not and cannot, there is a competitive implication.

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
uh, no

the question was about what US is going to do with all of the seats to FRA and MUC that it cannot codeshare on.

the discussion rightly moved toward finding an understanding of US carrier size in Eastern Europe.

like it or not, US lost a significant codeshare presence in Eastern Europe via LH and OS that cannot be replaced by oneworld.

obviously doing so was part of the calculus regarding the merger but it highlights that there were network losses involved in the merger. When your competitors carry the equivalent of several widebodies worth of passengers per day that you do not and cannot, there is a competitive implication.

 
Did you have a particular carrier in mind?  
 
Wait!
 
Let me guess!
 
(BTW, you proved my point.)

 

[700UW]

Bottom line is that any passenger can fly US to just about any European city and connect with anyone of the Oneworld partners and get to where they are going.
 
Isnt LHR the busiest airport in Europe?

 

[davidl]

 
Aside from the other comments that FRA sees 767's covering for A330 maintenance, those 767's won't be around much longer anyway.  I prefer the broader choice of OW hubs LHR, TXL and MAD for Europe connections to the *A hubs FRA, FRA and FRA (oh, and MUC)....

And CPH!

 

[WorldTraveler]

un, Finnair is NOT hubbed in CPH.

here is a primer on your new alliance.

http://www.oneworld.com/

 

[FWAAA]

Old US flew nonstop to FRA before it joined Star Alliance and I'd bet that new AA will continue to fly nonstop to FRA.   Just not twice a day from both PHL and CLT in the summer.   No huge surprise that US will fly fewer flights to FRA but will fly more flights to LHR.   While they aren't perfect substitutes for each other, LHR is where AA has a hub (via its joint venture) and can connect some passengers around Europe and to India and Africa.   

 

[nycbusdriver]

Old US flew nonstop to FRA before it joined Star Alliance and I'd bet that new AA will continue to fly nonstop to FRA.   Just not twice a day from both PHL and CLT in the summer.   No huge surprise that US will fly fewer flights to FRA but will fly more flights to LHR.   While they aren't perfect substitutes for each other, LHR is where AA has a hub (via its joint venture) and can connect some passengers around Europe and to India and Africa.   

 
And similar connection opportunities exist with Iberia in MAD.