Don't Blame Dallas For Love Field Being Open ...

[corl737]

Why does everyone blame Dallas for not closing Love Field? Dallas tried, several times, but because of the unique circumstances at the time the courts found over and over that it was not "legally permissible" to force either the closure of Love Field to commercial passenger air traffic nor to evict SWA.

Everything that transpired between 1967 (when SWA filed its first intent to operate intrastate) and 1978 was by the letter of the law as established by numerous court decisions including 8 decisions by Federal Courts, including the US Supreme Court. It was only in 1979, after airline deregulation was implemented, that the existing law was changed by Congress (since the courts had already ruled on the legality for Love Field to conduct passenger ops) to implement the Wright Amendment on behalf of DFW.

Notice that it took a change in the laws to put the Wright Amendment in place. Saying that the Amendment shouldn't be repealed because "a law is a law" doesn't hold any water with this issue!

(No, SWA's PR efforts are not puritan in this battle either, but at least we here on the forum can learn about the facts and not erroneously portray heresay as truth.)

 

[aafsc]

Why does everyone blame Dallas for not closing Love Field? Dallas tried, several times, but because of the unique circumstances at the time the courts found over and over that it was not "legally permissible" to force either the closure of Love Field to commercial passenger air traffic nor to evict SWA.

Everything that transpired between 1967 (when SWA filed its first intent to operate intrastate) and 1978 was by the letter of the law as established by numerous court decisions including 8 decisions by Federal Courts, including the US Supreme Court. It was only in 1979, after airline deregulation was implemented, that the existing law was changed by Congress (since the courts had already ruled on the legality for Love Field to conduct passenger ops) to implement the Wright Amendment on behalf of DFW.

Notice that it took a change in the laws to put the Wright Amendment in place. Saying that the Amendment shouldn't be repealed because "a law is a law" doesn't hold any water with this issue!

(No, SWA's PR efforts are not puritan in this battle either, but at least we here on the forum can learn about the facts and not erroneously portray heresay as truth.)

The intent was that Love was never supposed to compete with DFW. When the new Denver airport was opened, the city of Denver closed Stapleton. While were at it why doesnot AA demand an end to the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA? After all those are laws and if DAL is opened it should set a precendent. And if DAL is opened the city should be made to build as many new terminals as necessary to accomodate as many flights as AA and other airlines want to put in there. If DAL is opened, I hope AA drops 300 flights a day in there. That would sure kill Southwest's quick turn times.

 

[WNJETFIXER]

The intent was that Love was never supposed to compete with DFW. When the new Denver airport was opened, the city of Denver closed Stapleton. While were at it why doesnot AA demand an end to the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA? After all those are laws and if DAL is opened it should set a precendent. And if DAL is opened the city should be made to build as many new terminals as necessary to accomodate as many flights as AA and other airlines want to put in there. If DAL is opened, I hope AA drops 300 flights a day in there. That would sure kill Southwest's quick turn times.

Do you really think that they would split their hub?? I think it would be a really stupid move. :down:

 

[Ch. 12]

The intent was that Love was never supposed to compete with DFW. When the new Denver airport was opened, the city of Denver closed Stapleton. While were at it why doesnot AA demand an end to the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA? After all those are laws and if DAL is opened it should set a precendent. And if DAL is opened the city should be made to build as many new terminals as necessary to accomodate as many flights as AA and other airlines want to put in there. If DAL is opened, I hope AA drops 300 flights a day in there. That would sure kill Southwest's quick turn times.

1. Denver is much smaller than the metroplex. Dallas would benefit from two open airports.

2. AA has petitioned for and been granted extensions for the perimeters that include its hubs. What else would they need to accomplish...the perimeters fit their needs? Funny they would fight to expand DCA's perimeter (though they are now set against any more expansion...wouldn't want to allow PHX into the range) but they are dead set against DAL changes.

And why not learn something from AA's quick turn times rather than try to drag down the rest of the industry with the snAAils?

 

[corl737]

The intent was that Love was never supposed to compete with DFW.

The folks drafting the plans in 1967 failed to verify all the rules and therefore sold a concept that wasn't legally enforceable! While the FAA/CAB may have encouraged Dallas and Fort Worth to combine airports, they didn't have the ability to preempt the state of Texas' authority (through the Texas Aeronautics Commission) to designate the airports to which a TAC-certified airline could operate. (To their defense, the Feds only gave them 180 days to come up with a plan so the oversight, while a gargantuan blunder, may be understandable!)

The bottom line is that the cities and all the airlines that signed on to move to DFW were duped by the group that penned the agreement to build DFW. Instead of being angry at the entity that misled them they're trying to blame SWA for playing 100% within the laws that were in effect at the time. Dallas tried to cover their oversight by suing SWA but, again, the laws in effect at the time prohibited SWA from being evicted based on its authority to operate at Love Field as granted by the TAC.

When the new Denver airport was opened, the city of Denver closed Stapleton.

Denver could close Stapleton because it owned both the old and new airports. Austin could close Mueller because it owned both the old and new airports. DCA could be restricted upon the opening of IAD because the federal government owned both airports. LGA could be restricted to favor JFK because the NY Port Authority owned both airports. The scenario is obviously different in North Texas.

All this could easily be solved if the entire metroplex fell under a unified aviation authority, but what are the odds of Dallas giving up control of Love and Dallas Exec and Fort Worth giving up control of Meacham, Alliance, and Spinks? Do you think Arlington would sign up, too? How about Addison? McKinney? Denton? Mesquite? ... you get the point. To create a NTX Aviation Authority would be more of a political battle than even the Wright Amendment has created!

... And if DAL is opened the city should be made to build as many new terminals as necessary to accomodate as many flights as AA and other airlines want to put in there.

Love Field will be required to accomodate as many flights as the master plan permits. There is no law requiring the construction of new facilities to meet requests. Every airport publishes a "Competition Plan" that tells how the existing gates will be allocated to accomodate new entrants. For the most part they are very easy to read and worth your time if you want to understand the issue of airport competition.

Here are the links:
Love Field Competition Plan
DFW Competition Plan

 

[DFWCC]

Here we go again. We have corl737, wnjetfixer and channe12 all loyal employees of the WN pr dept, come over to the AA site to try and cause trouble. They drink the WN kool-aid bonzai charge to attack AA. Go spread your sh-t on the WN board. They are not going to covince anyone on this site otherwise.
Notice, when the Wright Amendment is mentioned, here comes the WN minions.

 

[aafsc]

The folks drafting the plans in 1967 failed to verify all the rules and therefore sold a concept that wasn't legally enforceable! While the FAA/CAB may have encouraged Dallas and Fort Worth to combine airports, they didn't have the ability to preempt the state of Texas' authority (through the Texas Aeronautics Commission) to designate the airports to which a TAC-certified airline could operate. (To their defense, the Feds only gave them 180 days to come up with a plan so the oversight, while a gargantuan blunder, may be understandable!)

The bottom line is that the cities and all the airlines that signed on to move to DFW were duped by the group that penned the agreement to build DFW. Instead of being angry at the entity that misled them they're trying to blame SWA for playing 100% within the laws that were in effect at the time. Dallas tried to cover their oversight by suing SWA but, again, the laws in effect at the time prohibited SWA from being evicted based on its authority to operate at Love Field as granted by the TAC.

Denver could close Stapleton because it owned both the old and new airports. Austin could close Mueller because it owned both the old and new airports. DCA could be restricted upon the opening of IAD because the federal government owned both airports. LGA could be restricted to favor JFK because the NY Port Authority owned both airports. The scenario is obviously different in North Texas.

All this could easily be solved if the entire metroplex fell under a unified aviation authority, but what are the odds of Dallas giving up control of Love and Dallas Exec and Fort Worth giving up control of Meacham, Alliance, and Spinks? Do you think Arlington would sign up, too? How about Addison? McKinney? Denton? Mesquite? ... you get the point. To create a NTX Aviation Authority would be more of a political battle than even the Wright Amendment has created!

Love Field will be required to accomodate as many flights as the master plan permits. There is no law requiring the construction of new facilities to meet requests. Every airport publishes a "Competition Plan" that tells how the existing gates will be allocated to accomodate new entrants. For the most part they are very easy to read and worth your time if you want to understand the issue of airport competition.

Here are the links:
Love Field Competition Plan
DFW Competition Plan

I'm not a lawyer but I would think that the Texas Aeronautics Commission would only have jusrisdiction within the state of Texas. So yes, they can fly within Texas; but when you start flying out of Texas, it becomes interstate commerce which is federally regulated. It went from flying within Texas, then to flying to the adjacent states, then Alabama and Mississippi (the Shelby amendment), to now they want to fly everywhere. Southwest reminds me of the TWAers. They relinquish their seniority so the TWA/AA deal goes through, then the Kasher arbitration ruling, now they have lawsuits trying to get all their seniority back after they signed it away. To bad Southwest did not buy TWA's assets because they would have been a perfect match.

As for the DAL facilities, Southwest has almost all of the gates there so the master plan is convienent for them and they will not want it changed. If Southwest is allowed to fly everywhere from DAL so that these Texans can have the lowest fare possible (which they clamor for), I would love to see AA completely leave DFW and take their thousands of compensated employees with them. It will be worse than the 1980's when people could not give their houses away. Real smart, sacrafice the value of your house to save a little on airline tickets.

 

[corl737]

Here we go again. We have corl737, wnjetfixer and channe12 all loyal employees of the WN pr dept, come over to the AA site to try and cause trouble.

Ahem, if I recall the US Aviation forums are open to everyone. We welcome you and your AA counterparts to discuss issues on the Southwest boards all the time. :wub: Besides, how does the promulgation of facts come under the heading of "causing trouble?" Perhaps the factual nature of my post makes takes you out of your comfort zone by challenging your DFW/AA-flavored koolaid?

I put this discussion here, on the American Forum because it is intended to reach an audience that isn't given the factual information about the legal reason Love Field was permitted to retain commercial passenger air service. The battle cry from DFW and Fort Worth has been that Dallas failed to live up to its end of the bargain. This discussion defends Dallas by showing that it had no legal choice and was prohibited from closing Love Field by numerous state and federal court decisions.

I welcome your efforts to refute my comments and support them with references of your own. This issue goes far back in history and I'm sure my reading, while extensive, is not all inclusive. I'll be happy to alter my statments to reflect my learning of new information if you're willing to help enlighten me.

(By the way, while I obviously support the repeal of the Wright Amendment, primarily on the grounds that it violates the intent of the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, I'm not entirely convinced that SWA's insistence to avoid operations from DFW is the right long-term strategic maneuver. Still, like you, I know who writes my paycheck!)

 

[TWAnr]

Southwest reminds me of the TWAers. They relinquish their seniority so the TWA/AA deal goes through, then the Kasher arbitration ruling, now they have lawsuits trying to get all their seniority back after they signed it away.

There you go, rewriting history.

The TWAers did not give up their seniority.

They agreed to eliminate the Scope and Successorship clauses of their Collective Bargaining Agreements in return for AA's promise to provide a fair and equitable process for seniority integration.

 

[AirLUVer]

Actually CORL737, I believe the judgement was that as long as Love Field was kept open as an airfield that Southwest had the legal right to operate there. No one ever sued or has attempted to close Love Field down to all air service.

 

[aafsc]

There you go, rewriting history.

The TWAers did not give up their seniority.

They agreed to eliminate the Scope and Successorship clauses of their Collective Bargaining Agreements in return for AA's promise to provide a fair and equitable process for seniority integration.

1. My job was not Carty's to give away. He had no leagal authority. So AA's promise was nothing but hollow words. You made a deal with the devil. Seniority is controlled by the Unions and the AA union members DEMANDED that we be protected. So in reality your blame should be placed squarely on the AA union members and not AA because we couldn't care less about what AA promised you.

2. We went to BINDING ARBITRATION, what can be more fair and equitable than that?

Face it, you just want 100% everywhere and will do everything and anything to get it. While your at it, why don't you demand the nAAtives' pensions for yourselves. Afterall, you willingly gave yours to Icahn in addition to working for the lowest wages amongst the legacies.

 

[corl737]

Actually CORL737, I believe the judgement was that as long as Love Field was kept open as an airfield that Southwest had the legal right to operate there. No one ever sued or has attempted to close Love Field down to all air service.

Your phraseology is correct regarding SWA's legal right to operate at Love Field as long as it remains open as an airport. "Southwest Airlines Co. has a federally declared right to the continued use of and access to Love Field, so long as Love Field remains open."(Southwest Airlines Co. v. Texas Int'l Airlines, Inc., 546 F.2d 84, 103 (5th Cir. 1977).)

The 1968 Regional Airport Concurrent Bond Ordinance, however, mandated that the cities "take such steps as may be necessary, appropriate and legally permissible . . . to provide for the orderly, efficient and effective phase-out at Love Field, Redbird, GSIA and Meacham Field, of any and all Certificated Air Carrier Services, and to transfer such activities to the [DFW] Regional Airport."

You're right that there was no provision written to close the airport down to all aviation traffic. The intent appears to be that only scheduled airlines were to be impacted, not general aviation activity.

Thanks for the fact-check. That's the only way we all make sure we're not skewing history to reflect the way we want it to be.

 

[Ch. 12]

Here we go again. We have corl737, wnjetfixer and channe12 all loyal employees of the WN pr dept, come over to the AA site to try and cause trouble. They drink the WN kool-aid bonzai charge to attack AA. Go spread your sh-t on the WN board. They are not going to covince anyone on this site otherwise.
Notice, when the Wright Amendment is mentioned, here comes the WN minions.

Get a clue, DFW. It is "chapter" 12 and I've told you on several occasions that I am not a WN employee nor have I ever been. I never tout that WN is a victim or a magnificent carrier. As I tell you OVER AND OVER...I can be objective on this matter b/c I'm not tied to either side. I just happen to see the only airline I know of (AA) that is protected by legislation made and upheld for them. Get rid of petty laws that only protect carriers and let free competition reign. I'd enjoy seeing a B6 or other carrier come in...I couldn't give a crap about WN.

But very nice, intelligent debate we usually run into on these boards. I am still waiting for several lurkers to tell me why they are afraid of competition in Dallas and how they can truly support the WA (other than the rather stupid argument that "a law is a law and doesn't need to be changed"...our country has never operated like that and we sure will be a bunch of back woods hillbillys the day that logic is followed). So will the lurkers please finally tell us your thoughts? That would be much better than just disappearing everytime you're called out on the carpet.

 

[TWAnr]

Get a clue, DFW. It is "chapter" 12...

As in the United States Bankruptcy Code?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

corl737, you can spin the Love field situation all you want, but the City of DALLAS is the ONE responsible for this Wright Amendment mess. Love Field should have been closed the day DFW opened. When I mean closed,I mean runways ripped up and the terminals demolished just like Denver's Stapleton and Austin's Mueller. The City of DALLAS failed to live up to it's end of the bargain period!