Delta jetliner rolls off taxiway during test

[WorldTraveler]

is that counting the reserve in case of diversiion oremergency?

obviously those considerations have to be present.... but there are still an enormous amount of routes within 2-3 hours of DL's largest hubs that are now flown by 50 seaters up to 319s, all of which could be candidates for the 717.
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Given that WN affirmed yesterday that they don't want them in their system - not only because of the complexity of the additional aircraft type but also because they made it clear that FL's former system doesn't work the way WN wants - means that the 717s will be available one way or the other.
DL is likely the only operator in the world which could take a fleet that large - which means DL has a lot of leverage to get the deal it wants or the planes get parked just as has happened with much of the M90 fleet.
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Given that DL is also in pilot negotiations and adding the 717s is undoubtedly tied to other contract items, this is not an easy deal to resolve... but there is nothing that says that the terms become less favorable for DL the longer it takes for a deal to be negotiated.

 

[robbedagain]

i dontknow if DL parked MD-90s yet because I see them in Baltimore on a daily basis. As for the 717 I take it that they cant fly say BWI-MSP for example but can do somthing like bwi-atl or bwi dtw etc?

 

[WorldTraveler]

FL uses the 717 on ATL-MSP which is blocked at about 2 hrs 40 minutes and about 900 miles. FL has used the 717 on ATL-DEN which is blocked at over 3 hrs westbound... although they use the 737 now although DEN's altitude is undoubtedly a larger factor on that route.
There are a number of routes blocked at close to 3 hrs that have seen 717 service.
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DL is adding to its M90 fleet by continuing to buy a few here and there from airlines around the world. The M90 is an orphan aircraft and the 717 is headed for the same fate. DL believes it can get those aircraft at relatively low acquisition costs while retaining fairly decent operating costs compared to comparable aircraft. ... in other words, models which no one wants which depresses the cost to buy them but with operating costs not much different from much more expensive aircraft that are still being produced.

 

[robbedagain]

would the 717 replace the DC-9 that DL still has from NW? and what about the replacing of crjs?

 

[metopower]

would the 717 replace the DC-9 that DL still has from NW? and what about the replacing of crjs?

That is the what we have been told.If this swap were to occur it would be through Boeing .Delta would give up 737-8 options to WN and WN would turn in 717 to Boeing. Boeing would sell 717 to DL. They would replace DC9's and rj -200

 

[WorldTraveler]

That is the what we have been told.If this swap were to occur it would be through Boeing .Delta would give up 737-8 options to WN and WN would turn in 717 to Boeing. Boeing would sell 717 to DL. They would replace DC9's and rj -200

Meto,
can you address the DL pilot negotiation aspects regarding the potential 717 deal?

 

[topDawg]

That is the what we have been told.If this swap were to occur it would be through Boeing .Delta would give up 737-8 options to WN and WN would turn in 717 to Boeing. Boeing would sell 717 to DL. They would replace DC9's and rj -200

Delta doesn't have any 800 options. (and FWIW never did, most(all?) 737 options are for NGs. so 600,700,800,900ER...just a fun fact) Anyways Delta gave Boeing all the options it had as part of the 900ER order. At this point they have 30 options which would come close to the end of the 900ER order. (so 2016 or so).

I don't know where this keeps coming from, but Delta has no options to give that WN will want. The early options (~60 NGs by 2015) are all gone. If 737s slots are part of the deal they will come via Boeing. Having nothing to do with Delta.

 

[topDawg]

FL uses the 717 on ATL-MSP which is blocked at about 2 hrs 40 minutes and about 900 miles. FL has used the 717 on ATL-DEN which is blocked at over 3 hrs westbound... although they use the 737 now although DEN's altitude is undoubtedly a larger factor on that route.
There are a number of routes blocked at close to 3 hrs that have seen 717 service.
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DL is adding to its M90 fleet by continuing to buy a few here and there from airlines around the world. The M90 is an orphan aircraft and the 717 is headed for the same fate. DL believes it can get those aircraft at relatively low acquisition costs while retaining fairly decent operating costs compared to comparable aircraft. ... in other words, models which no one wants which depresses the cost to buy them but with operating costs not much different from much more expensive aircraft that are still being produced.

FWIW the ATL-DEN route on the 717 was leaving cargo, and on some days PAX, behind. About 3 hours is as high as you want to go with it. I would say most will be running around ATL and NYC. Expect DTW to see a fair share of them and MSP to see some. The western bases wont see many/any. (SEA/LAX/SLC)

My personal thought is they will replace some DC9/CRJ and M88 flying. Same idea as the 739, they will replace a frame that doesn't have to be replaced so they can use them for growth v replacement if the economy picks up. The M88s still have lots of life in them, like most of the 75 fleet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I have no idea which version of the 717 FL has - the standard or high gross weight version. The standard has a max range of 1400+ nm while the HGW has a max range of 2000+ nm. Either would serve the east coast from ATL or JFK as long as any weather requiring an alternate was relatively localized. I believe that Boeing uses still air range in it's generic max range calculations as well as not allowing for alternate/reserves fuel.

Jim

 

[metopower]

Delta doesn't have any 800 options. (and FWIW never did, most(all?) 737 options are for NGs. so 600,700,800,900ER...just a fun fact) Anyways Delta gave Boeing all the options it had as part of the 900ER order. At this point they have 30 options which would come close to the end of the 900ER order. (so 2016 or so).

I don't know where this keeps coming from, but Delta has no options to give that WN will want. The early options (~60 NGs by 2015) are all gone. If 737s slots are part of the deal they will come via Boeing. Having nothing to do with Delta.

Do you really think that all these decisions have not been done long ago? WN knew that the 717was not in the plan before they acquired Airtran .I would bet this has been in the works long before DL change the orders for the 900's.

 

[metopower]

Meto,
can you address the DL pilot negotiation aspects regarding the potential 717 deal?

Only that any future 100seat airplane would be a DL airplane flown by DL pilots.I have no reason to dispute that. It goes counter to present management thinking.it is very quiet out here.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thanks, Meto. I had long presumed that ALPA would never consider allowing DL to operate the 717s other than by DL employees and DL pay rates - comparable to the DC9 or better.
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Since DL is clearly trying to reduce its 50 seat fleet - and the Pinnacle BK provides an opportunity to get rid of the service agreements if nothing else - then DL could well succeed at removing a lot of 50 seat capacity from the system - on top of the contracts that are due to expire in the next few years.
I would presume that DL is asking DALPA to expand the use of 70-76 seaters and perhaps other scope issues in return for adding the 717s.... assuming they can be obtained for the right price.
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It isn't terribly surprising that WN is de-emphasizing ATL - as well as for obvious economic reasons - if it wants to get rid of the 717s - and DL is the only real candidate to take the entire fleet. Boeing may assume part of the cost but WN isn't going to walk out of the 717 fleet w/o paying a price - and DL wants the lowest price possible. Logic says that the economics of using those jets change if DL doesn't have a large competitive hub on its doorstep but instead WN has a strong focus city operation in ATL.

 

[topDawg]

Do you really think that all these decisions have not been done long ago? WN knew that the 717was not in the plan before they acquired Airtran .I would bet this has been in the works long before DL change the orders for the 900's.

uh. Ok cool? Doesn't change the fact that Delta doesn't have 737 slots.


unless of course the 737-900ER order go to WN. That would be the only way.

 

[eolesen]

I find it curious you still have people pushing the myth that WN is de-emphasizing ATL, even though the data shows otherwise.

Once aircraft conversions pick up --- one a week starting after the summer season, and continuing until they're done -- I suspect there will be other changes rolling out. The fact that WN doesn't publish a 300 day schedule like everyone else makes it a little harder to really see the effects of that, but it's going to happen as they have more airplanes at their disposal.